The Series 2 Club Forum
August 22, 2019, 08:31:35 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register. Series 2 Club website

Login with username, password and session length
News: Please register for our new forum at:-
 www.series2club.co.uk/new_forum/index.php
 
   Home   Help Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  |  Home  
Author Topic: At What Point is a Rover No Longer Genuine Rover but a Kit?  (Read 2144 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Correus
Leaf spring tester
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 657



Location: Belle Plaine, Kansas, USA


« on: May 23, 2019, 03:21:31 PM »

Here in the US there is an old saying about "genuine" items - "this is great-great-great-grandad's axe he brought with him when he came to America; over the years the handle has been replaced 3 times and the head twice."

I saw the following listing on eBay to day and this old saying popped into my head.

Item #233100429049

There are 58 points made as to what has been done to the Rover.  90% of the items are "new" with a few being "NOS".  About the only original items are the engine and transmission housing (doesn't say they are original to this Rover but it doesn't say "new" or "NOS".

Technically I guess it is a Rover, but is it "really" a Rover?  At what point are they no longer originals?

Logged

'63 SIIa 88 Station Wagon named Grover

Mpudi: So how did the land rover get up the tree?
Steyn: Do you know she has flowers on her panties?
Mpudi: So that's how it got up the tree.
geoff
Green Bible basher
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5955



Location: South Wales


« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2019, 03:27:39 PM »


Still a Rover .... heaven help us all  laugh laugh agh agh whistle whistle whistle

  Still at $150 an hour charge it must be a good business to be in ....  whistle
Logged
Correus
Leaf spring tester
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 657



Location: Belle Plaine, Kansas, USA


« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2019, 03:36:52 PM »

...heaven help us all  laugh laugh agh agh whistle whistle whistle

Is it the price or the what was done to it?

You'd be surprised at what some people pay and do to Rovers over here.  I know a guy who had a "67 IIa professionally "remade".  It was painted a custom color, all exposed rivets where chromed, the LR oval badges were bronzed and a custom made A/C unit was created.  The innards of the A/C unit cost $5K and the part you saw from the inside was even more. 
Logged
Genocache
S2C member
Hub seal supremo
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1934



Location: Boulder Creek, California


« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2019, 03:47:48 PM »

The ad is Charles Kellog, he thinks highly of himself and his work/parts. A certain percentage of work comes to him because of his location and how peoples find him. Call him and ask if he has a part for sale, he will tell you he has several and the exorbitant amount he wants and then he won't sell it to you because he thinks you are not into Rovers enough. Or he'll tell you he only sells to his regular customers. He has earned the name Cornflakes.
Logged

You don't see faith healers working in hospitals for the same reason you don't see psychics winning the lottery.
Land Rover owner since 1973.
109 blog; poppageno.blogspot.com
geoff
Green Bible basher
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5955



Location: South Wales


« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2019, 03:51:53 PM »


 I'll put him on my Christmas card list  laugh
Logged
Wittsend
Administrator ...
who is all knowing
*
Offline Offline

Posts: I am a geek!!



Location: Live from:- Norwich

WWW
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2019, 04:03:24 PM »

Granddad's axe = over here in modern parlance we know it as Trigger's broom (from a popular TV programme - Only Fools and Horses - Trigger was a road sweeper).


Over here the DVLA have a "points system" which if you exceed counts as a radically altered vehicle and requires a different registration.

Otherwise it's a veritable can of worms you've opened  worms

There was another Kellog, John Harvey, who was a bit "odd".


 RHD
Logged

PLEASE move over and register on the new forum   www.series2club.co.uk/new_forum/index.php
 
Correus
Leaf spring tester
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 657



Location: Belle Plaine, Kansas, USA


« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2019, 05:58:30 PM »

The ad is Charles Kellog, he thinks highly of himself and his work/parts. A certain percentage of work comes to him because of his location and how peoples find him. Call him and ask if he has a part for sale, he will tell you he has several and the exorbitant amount he wants and then he won't sell it to you because he thinks you are not into Rovers enough. Or he'll tell you he only sells to his regular customers. He has earned the name Cornflakes.

LOL  I wasn't going to mention Cornflake's name, but yes - that is him.  I don't know how he stays in business.  Have you seen how many lawsuits he's involved in?  If you read some of the lawsuits and complaints you can see his business is primarily smoke-n-mirrors.

And yes, he is very full of himself.  I love how his website says:

Quote
?Due to their hard-to-find nature (some of these parts have been out of production for over 60 years!), Some parts may only be available for vehicle restorations here at Dare Britannia, Ltd. Call or email us for availability.

It use to saw something like "available only to our dedicated Rover customers or serious restorations".
Logged
Correus
Leaf spring tester
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 657



Location: Belle Plaine, Kansas, USA


« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2019, 06:05:52 PM »

Granddad's axe = over here in modern parlance we know it as Trigger's broom (from a popular TV programme - Only Fools and Horses - Trigger was a road sweeper).


Over here the DVLA have a "points system" which if you exceed counts as a radically altered vehicle and requires a different registration.

Otherwise it's a veritable can of worms you've opened  worms

There was another Kellog, John Harvey, who was a bit "odd".


 RHD

I'm not sure if we have a points system over here or not.

I've seen discussions on various social media outlets about the ability to purchase everything you need to build a brand new Series Rover.  I know of a couple of people who have done this.  From what they said the only issue they had was getting a VIN.  There's some paperwork to do, as well as an inspection, and then you are provided a VIN via the State you register it in.  I keep thinking that it's officially listed as a "custom kit vehicle", but I'm not sure.  One of them did say his State wouldn't allow him to officially call it a "Land Rover" because it wasn't built by Land Rover.
Logged
porkscratching
Master of the Oils
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2298


Location: London


« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2019, 06:23:25 PM »

I suspect in the US it's somewhat easier than over here to just assemble a vehicle and use it  nixweiss
Tbh many of the "restored" LRs over here...
new chassis, new bulkhead , etc etc, are to my mind a new build "replica" rather than restored original, on the other hand it's good that the regs allow some tolerance on this, provided it approached with, erm.. care.. wink
Logged

"Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
 Douglas MacArthur
Correus
Leaf spring tester
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 657



Location: Belle Plaine, Kansas, USA


« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2019, 07:02:27 PM »

I suspect in the US it's somewhat easier than over here to just assemble a vehicle and use it  nixweiss
Tbh many of the "restored" LRs over here...
new chassis, new bulkhead , etc etc, are to my mind a new build "replica" rather than restored original, on the other hand it's good that the regs allow some tolerance on this, provided it approached with, erm.. care.. wink

It's real easy in most states.  You can completely build your own vehicle design and drive it as long as it meets all the safty criteria.  I think you get a special VIN that indicates "experimental". Same goes for small aircraft.  I could build a replica WWI fighter plane, get it registered as "experimental" or some such and get an experimental flying license, a.k.a sport pilots license, as well.  All I'd have to have is a valid U.S. driver's license.
Logged
sharkojoints
S2C member
Leaf spring tester
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 480


Location: Stroud, Gloucs


« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2019, 07:29:11 PM »

Blimey.

If you enjoy humour then Dare Britannia is worth a look.

You would think we were dealing with 'WO' era Bentleys, not old Land Rovers, or even priceless Renaissance masters...

Only wisdom cuts through the fog of doubt. With more than 40 international restoration prizes to my credit and 40 years experience with Land-Rover I can survey your prospective purchase from behind my desk in most cases. Does it interest you to learn that I disqualify better than 95% of the Land-Rovers I survey? Perhaps that’s because I am retained by intelligent individuals who seek knowledgeable appraisals before they purchase.

Can I come and be a Land Rover expert please?  wink
Logged
Genocache
S2C member
Hub seal supremo
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1934



Location: Boulder Creek, California


« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2019, 10:13:27 PM »

Kit car?  https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/car-technology/g27527364/himalaya-spectre-land-rover/?source=nl&utm_source=nl_pop&utm_medium=email&date=052019&src=nl&utm_campaign=16947796
Logged
Correus
Leaf spring tester
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 657



Location: Belle Plaine, Kansas, USA


« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2019, 11:53:25 PM »

Blimey.

If you enjoy humour then Dare Britannia is worth a look.

You would think we were dealing with 'WO' era Bentleys, not old Land Rovers, or even priceless Renaissance masters...

Only wisdom cuts through the fog of doubt. With more than 40 international restoration prizes to my credit and 40 years experience with Land-Rover I can survey your prospective purchase from behind my desk in most cases. Does it interest you to learn that I disqualify better than 95% of the Land-Rovers I survey? Perhaps that’s because I am retained by intelligent individuals who seek knowledgeable appraisals before they purchase.

Can I come and be a Land Rover expert please?  wink

And now you know why he is called "Cornflake".

BTW - for someone who is so exacting and a perfectionist he seems to have missed updating his own hype on the page you linked.  If you look at the front page you'll see:

Dare Britannia is the recipient of more than 60 international prizes for its restorations. References are available upon request.

Something I find interesting is this - if you talk to a lot of the major Rover event people here in the US non can say they are aware of any award given to the guy.

Most of the lawsuits against him are pretty astounding.  In one of them a guy relates sending him his Series Rover for some major repairs and a couple of upgrades.  The agreement was to be that parts and labour were not to exceed $10K without prior approval.  Evidently Cornflake kept contacting him to let him know they "found" a problem and it should really be taken care of if it was to be done properly.  About 6 months later the guy got his Rover back plus a bill for $60K.  The owner basically said "WT?!?!" and Cornflake reminded him that he called the guy each time they found something.  The owner said he thought the cost for all of that was within the stipulated $10K.  Cornflake pointed out that in the contract - even though it was buried in the very, very fine print - that when an owner is notified, and gives permission, that DB has the right to take as much time, and charge as much as is necessary to do the job.  The owner wanted his Rover to be inspected by a couple other restoration shops in order to establish what a reasonable amount would actually be for the work done as well as to determine whether or not those things Cornflake "found" were even necessary.  Cornflake refused to allow the Rover to leave his shop so it could be evaluated.  It finally took a court order to release the Rover.  Rumor has it that part of Cornflake's reasoning for the time and cost was comparing himself to a specialist surgeon, saying something like "if you have a heart or brain that needs to be operated on you don't have a general surgeon do it, you go to a specialist".  Not sure if that part is true, the case was settled out of court and the records sealed.

There's another one out there that's similar but the amount was around $100K.

Just google the guy and the company and add complaints and/or lawsuits - you'll be amazed.
Logged
Correus
Leaf spring tester
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 657



Location: Belle Plaine, Kansas, USA


« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2019, 12:00:32 AM »


I have seen this before.  There are a couple other similar companies out there.  One is Royal Defenders.  They have a 'Spectre' currently for sale at $159K.  They had a SIIa 109 that was in the same price range.  The other company, and I'll have to dig to find it, had a D110 that they tricked out and sold for $239K.
Logged
w3526602
S2C member
Green Bible basher
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 16566


Location: Somewhere in Milton Keynes


« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2019, 12:04:53 PM »

Hi,

Basically, if your chassis number does not match the V5, you have got an illegal vehicle. You need an SVA.

I have just bought the latest version of Whick Kit's guide to building a kit, which covers how to register the "fruit of your loins". That means I don't need the old one that I bought many yonks ago. Much of the advice is probably still relevent.

I will be posting the old version to Wittsend, for his perusal and thoughts (no need to return)... when I get my act together.

602
Logged
HWE108N
S2C member
Leaf spring tester
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 738

Location: North Wales


« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2019, 12:13:55 PM »

That ebay ad reminds me of the "Bat Fastard" comic strip which used to appear in one of the LR mags wink
Logged
Tugboat
Hub seal supremo
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1525


Location: Renfrewshire & Argyll


« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2019, 02:20:19 PM »

They were almost infinitely configurable kits from the outset, albeit factory assembled.
Logged
Correus
Leaf spring tester
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 657



Location: Belle Plaine, Kansas, USA


« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2019, 02:57:15 PM »

They were almost infinitely configurable kits from the outset, albeit factory assembled.

When I was looking at buying Grover, and having no previous experience with Rovers or any other similar vehicles nor in possession of any mechanical skills, I was rather worried about buying it.  I was thinking it might be more than I could handle, especially since there were no mechanics around who had experience with them.

The guy I bought it from was selling the rig for a friend of his and he had owned and worked on many Rovers himself.

He said something that winched the deal and has stuck with me.

"These things are nothing more than a large LEGO set.  If you can assemble a LEGO set you can work on these."

When the Rover arrived I found the Johnny Thunder LEGO set number 5918 in the bulkhead space next to the steering column.  The note he had attached said "enjoy!"
Logged
w3526602
S2C member
Green Bible basher
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 16566


Location: Somewhere in Milton Keynes


« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2019, 03:45:57 PM »

Technically I guess it is a Rover, but is it "really" a Rover?  At what point are they no longer originals?

Hi Correus,

Here in the UK, we have (or had) a points system, with each major component winning a certain number of points.

First of all, the CHASSIS (or body shell if there is no chassis) which is worth 5 points. The body/chassis must be the original, OR a brand new REPLICA ... it must be one or the other. If you are caught with a NOT original chassis or shell, you will have the option of presenting for a thorough inspection and winning a VIN number .... OR crushing the car.

All the major components have a points value, and the car must earn, I think, 12 points.  OK, OK, my information is several years out of date, but I can't see them, making it easier.

602
Logged
porkscratching
Master of the Oils
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2298


Location: London


« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2019, 04:21:53 PM »

I always describe old land rovers as a big meccano set...
Logged
Correus
Leaf spring tester
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 657



Location: Belle Plaine, Kansas, USA


« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2019, 06:20:14 AM »

Technically I guess it is a Rover, but is it "really" a Rover?  At what point are they no longer originals?

Hi Correus,

Here in the UK, we have (or had) a points system, with each major component winning a certain number of points.

First of all, the CHASSIS (or body shell if there is no chassis) which is worth 5 points. The body/chassis must be the original, OR a brand new REPLICA ... it must be one or the other. If you are caught with a NOT original chassis or shell, you will have the option of presenting for a thorough inspection and winning a VIN number .... OR crushing the car.

All the major components have a points value, and the car must earn, I think, 12 points.  OK, OK, my information is several years out of date, but I can't see them, making it easier.

602

Interesting....
Logged
glenanderson
S2C member
Master of the Oils
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3146



Location: Dover, Kent.


« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2019, 08:05:06 AM »

They were almost infinitely configurable kits from the outset, albeit factory assembled.

This. They were always kits. You could have had whatever configuration you wanted from new, if your pockets were deep enough.
Logged

My worst worry about dying is my wife selling my stuff for what I told her it cost...
Old Hywel
S2C member
Hub seal supremo
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1277


Location: Glamorgan


« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2019, 08:14:51 AM »


Hi Correus,

Here in the UK, we have (or had) a points system, with each major component winning a certain number of points.

First of all, the CHASSIS (or body shell if there is no chassis) which is worth 5 points. The body/chassis must be the original, OR a brand new REPLICA ...

All the major components have a points value, and the car must earn, I think, 12 points. 
602

No, it’s 8 points.
Logged
w3526602
S2C member
Green Bible basher
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 16566


Location: Somewhere in Milton Keynes


« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2019, 09:04:16 AM »

No, it’s 8 points.

Hi,

I realised that when I read my own mail this morning ... not a problem, as you have already corrected it.

Basically, the vehicle MUST either have it's ORIGINAL chassis (or shell if there is no chassis) or a NEW chassis or shell to the same "specification" as the original. Richards offer a REPLICA chassis, so it seems the replacement chassis or shell need not be manufactured by the factory who made the original, but (I'm guessing) it must not have been previously fitted to another vehicle.

Other major components have similar values (in points). It's been many years since I worried about such things, so memory is fading. But I think you want to be able to prove the date of manufacture on the Engine, Geabox, Axles, Suspension, Steering, and "Transmision (?)". Not all of theres need be original/new, provided that you have sufficient "points" to total, I think, 13, including the aforementioned 8 for the chassis. To my mind, the rules are not particularly onerous, apart from maybe having to buy a new chassis.

However ... if somebody notices (as they do) that the chassis doesn't conform to the rules, you are into VIN territory .... and you don't want to go there. Apart from the cost of the inspection, you will need to have a good working knowledge of what the inspectors will be looking for ....

You must be able to glance into the mirror without moving your head.

Anything that you are likely to come into contact will must be padded ... or have a minimum radius of 20mm. What is the diameter of the rim of a Series steering wheel rim (cross section). Think about your knees coming into contact with the bottom corner of the parcel shelf. Switches need to be "flush". I'm not sure if a locking filler cap is required.

I have the original edition of KIT CAR's  Guide to "KIT CARS and the SVA" When I find an envelope, I will post it to Wittsend, to add to his library. But note, it is many years old, so no doubt things have progressed.

602
Logged
Old Hywel
S2C member
Hub seal supremo
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1277


Location: Glamorgan


« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2019, 09:48:45 AM »

If anyone’s concerned about the validity of their vehicle, please ignore the erroneous postings on here and search for DVLA Vehicle Points System, or similar.
Logged
jeremy
Green Bible basher
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5814

Location: Hampshire


« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2019, 09:54:11 AM »

Logged
p4t
Hub seal supremo
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1509

Location: Suffolk boarders


« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2019, 11:41:54 AM »


You'd be surprised at what some people pay and do to Rovers over here........... all exposed rivets where chromed.....

Yes I would be very surprised because although you can chrome just about anything, the technicalities of chroming the rivets (which would have to be done before insertion) & then fitting them without ruining the chrome is a big ask because chrome is not as happy on aluminium as it is on more commonly chromed metals.
Logged
Correus
Leaf spring tester
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 657



Location: Belle Plaine, Kansas, USA


« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2019, 03:15:40 PM »

Yes I would be very surprised because although you can chrome just about anything, the technicalities of chroming the rivets (which would have to be done before insertion) & then fitting them without ruining the chrome is a big ask because chrome is not as happy on aluminium as it is on more commonly chromed metals.

Yup - and the guy paid dearly for it.  I do have pics around I'll try and dig up. 
Logged
Correus
Leaf spring tester
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 657



Location: Belle Plaine, Kansas, USA


« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2019, 05:41:51 PM »

Dug up the best pics I have on the above mentioned Rover.

Here's a little history on the owner and the Rover.  Personally, this guy is the type of vintage vehicle owner of any kind I don't care for and have little respect for.  The fact that it's a Rover just makes it worse to me.  He's one of those that want the lifestyle or vehicle without putting in any of the work.

When I talked to him he said he was just too busy to take the time to find one himself so he hired a person to do it for him.  The person found 3 potential Rovers and sent him pics.  After choosing which one he sent it straight to a professional restoration shop.  It was at that shop for just over a year (14 months IIRC).  It then went to a couple of other professional shops for tweaking of a few items he felt the original shop hadn't gotten right.  One of those were the seats.  New rear bench seats and a set of deluxe front seats were installed.  He wasn't happy with the way they looked and the restoration shop said they didn't do upholstery work.  So he sent it to another shop to have the seats done in tan leather with the front ones getting plaid inserts as well.

All-in-all it was almost a year and a half from the day the first restoration shop got to the day he took delivery of it.  At no time during that process did he ever see it in person.  The closest he got was a weekly update with pics.

Also, the guy keeps calling it a '67 IIa - it's a '63.

Following are the "before" and "after" pics.  If you notice, it now has a soft top; not a big deal, a lot of owners have hard and soft tops they switch out.  However, this guy didn't like the tropical top so just got rid of it - said he had no use for one in southern California.

Logged
Correus
Leaf spring tester
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 657



Location: Belle Plaine, Kansas, USA


« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2019, 05:57:47 PM »

Okay - here are the pics of the chromed rivets.  These are the reason I contacted him originally.  When I first saw these I just thought they were polished aluminum rivets so I was curious as to how he accomplished it - masking them off before painting, installing after painting and so on.

He tolled me they were chromed. 

I found out who did the rebuild for him and it was done by someone I was acquainted with enough I could talk to about it.  I figured the guy was exaggerating a bit and perhaps they were stainless steel or something else that gave a chrome look to them. 

Nope - those, plus a bunch of other little things, such as latches, were also chromed.  The even used chromed screws in some spots.  The guy said the customer paid dearly for it.

You can also see the custom color he painted it.  The other pic shows the "custome made bronze oval plate".  Not really custome made though - there's a guy who makes the plates out of several different metals and sells them online, guess there is a market for copper, brass, bronze and such.

Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  |  Home  
 
Jump to:  

If anyone has concerns about any of the postings here, please contact the Forum Administrator.
Please read our posting guidelines in the Terms of Use and our Disclaimer. The Series 2 Club Ltd. is not responsible for the content of external internet sites.
By using this Forum you agree to our use of cookies as described in our Privacy Policy.
The Best Theme Green

Powered by SMF 1.1.9 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines LLC and hosted by © 2019 Wittsend Innovations Ltd.
Page created in 0.4 seconds with 22 queries.