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Author Topic: Hydrogen Fuel ?  (Read 552 times)
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Correus
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« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2019, 03:17:58 PM »

Airship fabric covering (and other aircraft) were treated with cellulose nitrate - sometimes known as gun cotton!  So even if you filled your airship with helium (available in USA only where it comes out of a cave or something) the outer skin would burn - until the helium was released - when I suppose it might act as a fire extingusher for flames on the top of the craft.

Some of us are so old we can remember cameras with film - and those films being quaintly described as 'safety film' - this was cellulose acetate - which was much less likely to burn than earlier film made from cellulose nitrate!

To be more precise, the Hindenburg's outer skin was painted with cellulose acetate butyrate.

Airships have fascinated me since I was probably 7 or 8 years old.  At one point in time I considered going into drafting and was always drawing airship blueprints.  Back in the early '80s Boeing, at the Wichita KS location, was actively looking at building airships and airship ports.  At that time my girlfriend's father (would become father-n-law a few years later) was working on the project.  He found out about my blueprints and wanted to see them.  He took the to the office and they were placed in their files.

A few years before his death I became friends with Harold G. Dick, he was a mechanical engineer Goodyear and specialized in airship R&D.  He actually helped with design modifications on the Hindenburg and with the primary design of the LZ 130 Graf Zeppelin II.  He also helped crew the original Graf Zeppelin and the Hindenburg.  He was supposed to be on the Hindenburg's last flight but was called away elsewhere.  He did participate in the investigation.  I inherited several of his airship items after his death, including a couple items that survived the crash.

How freaky you mentioned "helium (available in USA only where it comes out of a cave or something)".

Helium was first discovered in Dexter Kansas, 47 miles away from where I live.  What's freaky is that I drove through Dexter yesterday!!!!  They get the helium from gas wells.  There are several extraction plants located in Colorado, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah and Wyoming.  Most of the plants are in Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas.

As to the color of the flames, and other information regarding the disaster, the following links provided excellent information.

https://www.airships.net/hindenburg/disaster/

https://www.airships.net/hindenburg/disaster/myths/

The following YouTube link is perhaps one of the best videos walking a person through the disaster.  It takes you through a forensic investigation of it and explains the fire's speed and color.  It also does a good job explaining what caused the spark that set it off.
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w3526602
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« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2019, 03:21:21 PM »

Hi,

I understood that Hydrogen reverted to H2O when burned. nixweiss

And yes, the R100 was obviously not built by Airspeed.  embarrassed  I'm sorry if I suggested it was.

How far do you need to dig before your spit boils?

Me? I would investigate  dumping the Pennines into the sea between Scotland and Northern Ireland, and hope the Gulf Stream would suck the water out of the Irish Sea, U-tube fashion. That should give a head of water that could be harvested. I'll get my coat.

I have read that it should be possible to build a canal at altitude 38 (but 38 what? Feet? Metres?) round the Pennines without a single lock, and a single donkey can pull a 38 ton barge.  Can that be translated into other locations/routes. It seems crazy that dozens of HGVs are doing silly speeds on motorways, just to deliver potatoes.

602
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Worf
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« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2019, 03:21:54 PM »

I have just spotted THIS
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jeremy
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« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2019, 04:28:43 PM »

the pollution everyone is getting excited about at the moment is the oxides of nitrogen.  There's no nitrogen in any commonly used fuel - petrol/diesel being composed of hydrogen and carbon in various configurations - so the nitrogen oxides come from the atmosphere and are produced mainly at high combustion temperature and pressure conditions.

Burn hydrogen as a fuel - and you've still got the conditions for the production of oxides of nitrogen. It may be there's fewer of them or different oxides as the conbustion is at a different temperature - but its still there.

Fuel cells have been around for a long time (just like nuclear fusion - it'll be viable in 30 years) but haven't caught on.  Investigating them is good for chemical companies like Ineos - especially if someone else will pay.

Ineos is huge - sales 3 or 4 times that of JLR and about 1/2 that of the whole of Ford without the handicap of Ford management.
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crumbly65
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« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2019, 05:23:01 PM »

Correus, driving into Central London in a normal petrol-engined vehicle is a no-no.
Firstly, there’s a daily congestion charge of £12.00 ($15?) per day on top of fuel costs and daily parking charges.
The average speed of traffic in central London is about that of a horse & cart - 3 to 5 mph.

This small island of ours is horribly crowded and traffic clogged in the South-East of England. We can only envy those of you with the wide open spaces of the USA....
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ashowman
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« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2019, 05:35:11 PM »

The last 4 cities I have visited were Coventry, Liverpool, Birmingham and London.

Each time I travelled by train off-peak, which worked out much cheaper than the combined cost of fuel to get there and parking charges, unless you live and have to work in a city there is very little point driving into one.

Simon.
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Correus
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« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2019, 08:16:58 AM »

Correus, driving into Central London in a normal petrol-engined vehicle is a no-no.
Firstly, there’s a daily congestion charge of £12.00 ($15?) per day on top of fuel costs and daily parking charges.
The average speed of traffic in central London is about that of a horse & cart - 3 to 5 mph.

This small island of ours is horribly crowded and traffic clogged in the South-East of England. We can only envy those of you with the wide open spaces of the USA....

Dang...I feel for you...  you could move here!!
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Correus
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« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2019, 08:18:58 AM »

The last 4 cities I have visited were Coventry, Liverpool, Birmingham and London.

Each time I travelled by train off-peak, which worked out much cheaper than the combined cost of fuel to get there and parking charges, unless you live and have to work in a city there is very little point driving into one.

Simon.

I avoid going near the largest city near me at all cost.  I leave that up to SWMBO.
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HWE108N
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« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2019, 08:27:39 AM »

I have read that it should be possible to build a canal at altitude 38 (but 38 what? Feet? Metres?) round the Pennines without a single lock, and a single donkey can pull a 38 ton barge.  Can that be translated into other locations/routes. It seems crazy that dozens of HGVs are doing silly speeds on motorways, just to deliver potatoes.

602

602, the thing is we once had a pretty decent canal network, and likewise a railway network that served the whole country, goods, farm produce, mail and even livestock went by rail, then came Beeching shakinghead
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porkscratching
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« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2019, 08:58:06 AM »

Much of the rail network has been trashed post beeching, along with British industry, a systematic and deliberate act...
An example...When they closed Consett steel works, all the whole infrastructure, buildings, track everything, was obliterated in very short time..quite obviously and deliberately so there was no possibility of it ever being re started..
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« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2019, 09:10:13 AM »

Minded to current tech, I'll never understand the fascination with Hydrogen. It's difficult to produce.

Methane isn't. Sit there long enough and you'll 'produce' some. Me? If they banned Petrol/Die-sel this minute, except for cold Feb mornings, when starting with the stuff is a next to impossible, I'd not cry. The exhaust smells like you're standing over your gas-hob, or you're sniffing  your central-heating vent. Usually fixated to a Diesel, I realise this is a contentious for owners of an S2, far too leftfield, so it won't happen - but I seem to cope.

Except for those Feb morns, they could ban Petrol/Die-sel tomorrow. Mine's a daily-driver and still, I rarely use the stuff. Yup, bring it on. Where as Hydrogen is a not truly viable, just don't take the G20.
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HWE108N
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« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2019, 09:12:07 AM »

Much of the rail network has been trashed post beeching, along with British industry, a systematic and deliberate act...
An example...When they closed Consett steel works, all the whole infrastructure, buildings, track everything, was obliterated in very short time..quite obviously and deliberately so there was no possibility of it ever being re started..

Very true, but the Beeching report was what cut off many rural communities and forced people into cars, or isolation.
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porkscratching
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« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2019, 09:50:09 AM »

Very true, but the Beeching report was what cut off many rural communities and forced people into cars, or isolation.
Absolutely right...ironically quite a number of axed lines, or bits of them, became 'preserved' railways, run by enthusiasts, and have been quite a success..
....not that converting Britain from the worlds leading industrial nation into a little theme park / tourist attraction is something to be proud of... shakinghead
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w3526602
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« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2019, 01:18:46 PM »

Hi,

Somebody once told me that Beeching and Marples went to the same school. nixweiss
If so, I'm not sure of the significance. nixweiss

602
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HWE108N
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« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2019, 02:14:51 PM »

Absolutely right...ironically quite a number of axed lines, or bits of them, became 'preserved' railways, run by enthusiasts, and have been quite a success..
....not that converting Britain from the worlds leading industrial nation into a little theme park / tourist attraction is something to be proud of... shakinghead

I agree, though the writing was on the wall for British industry as soon as WWII got underway and the end of the empire in its aftermath, but even without the war I don't believe we could have sustained our industry at the level of its heyday.

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w3526602
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« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2019, 05:25:52 PM »

Hi,

In a former life, Barbara worked for Customs and Excise (assessing goods for Purchase Tax) but got herself pregnant again, so resigned just before VAT was introduced. She worked in Adelaide House just off the end of London Bridge.

One day, she had to meet her parents of the Swansea train, so she asked if she could park our very "distressed" Mini on Custom's Key (sp?). Her boss said yes. So just once, she drove into work, from Caterham-on Hill ... think Caterham Barracks and/or Kenley aerodrome.

There's posh! I don't think she would have wanted to do it regularly, easier to drive a couple of miles down the hill to Kenley Station, and walk a few yards into her office.

602
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