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[w3526602]

Hi Both (last two)

Your answers/advice make sense, Thankyou ... I'll (try) to drop out of the argument now. I don't anticipate doing anything "extreme" in whatever future is left to me.

602

[Robin]

I'll just throw this in here - I asked a question of VOSA back in 2013, asking if you could tow a trailer plated at 3.5 ton unladen with a 2 ton vehicle, and received this in reply:

"I refer to your mail of 13 February to VOSA Enquiries with the above title.

You need to have category B+E on your driving licence to tow a 3.5 tonne GVW trailer with a private car/van. Category B  limits the combined car + trailer GVWs to a total of 3.5 tonnes which is where the confusion arises. However  I confirm that for technical purposes a motor vehicle can tow any trailer provided the towing vehicle's towing capacity or Gross Train Weight is not exceeded, regardless of the Gross Vehicle Weight of the Trailer. Thus your example vehicle with a 2.0 tonne towing capacity can legally  tow an unladen trailer weighing say 1 tonne even though the trailer GVW is 3.5 tonnes provided you have the B+E driving licence.

The only regulations that make usage limitations based on trailer GVW rather than actual weight are some categories of driving licence (as mentioned above), tachograph and driver's hours, and goods vehicle operator licensing. Those that govern overloading offences, the  Authorised Weight Regulations 1998 and the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 do not.

Steve Whitehart
Heavy Vehicle Process Manager
Testing and Support Services
Customer Service Centre
VOSA Swansea"

[Robin]

I also have this in my records:



 

Robin.

[Peter Holden]

That is good Robin but if they work anything like DVLA it is alway wise to check their latest interpretation.

Peter

[Noddy]

When the police check weighed vans and light vehicles they would insist that the driver and any passengers stood on the bridge all part of the actual weight when been driven. Didn't bother with the HGVs.

[22900013A]

The above email and document give a clear answer regarding mechanical towing weights (ie the actual weight it is used, not gross) but don't help much about the listening aspect. They seem to be saying you need b&e in any case. I'd suggest not exceeding 750kg trailer weight without b&e. Note that a series vehicle is limited to a 500KG unbraked trailer weight limit, not 750KG which is simply the legal maximum.

[PuG]

Yes, I reckon that's right. Minefield.

So from the letters etc any physical trailer checks by DVSA they would only be concerned in overall train road weight and suitability etc. But if your pulled by the police for example then that would be presumably a license check, and that falls in the realm of the DVLA e.g. MAM + MAM = SHT.

Amazing how complicated they can manage to make it, and completely unnecessary. I'm not one to throw around the word given half a penny but I feel slightly discriminated. I understand why from a political point of view the need for extra licenses (after all it earns them money and makes them feel important) but its heavy handed for the B category - keep the 3.5 tons total but scrap going of the maximum authorized mass plates. Just because the plate says X weight doesn't mean your obliged to carry the full load...

For information, if your in France, you can take a D69, 7 hour tuition course (safe handling), doesn't have an exam at the end, which allows you to drive up to 4250kg's total MAM.

If my engine wasn't broken in the Series in the first place then I would just down plate the trailer and pull it with that.

Cheers,

[Clifford Pope]

I used to keep a boat weighing 2 1/2 tons at a boatyard, who pulled it out for storage ashore every winter. The boat was stored on my own  4-wheel trailer, but it would be charged for if I left it empty at the yard during the summer, so I towed it home.
Cue endless argument about whether that was legal or not - the trailer weight was of no consequence to the car, if empty, but some argued that it was the theoretical laden weight that mattered regardless.

[rustylandrovers]

I was told a few years ago by a driving instructor that it's the plated weight that counts. It seems there's some confusion then, even from people who should know better.

For what it's worth, I did my trailer training/test in a day for <£200. It's not that big a deal, and then you've got no worries about the law - or interpretations thereof.

Amazing how complicated they can manage to make it, and completely unnecessary. I'm not one to throw around the word given half a penny but I feel slightly discriminated. I understand why from a political point of view the need for extra licenses (after all it earns them money and makes them feel important) but its heavy handed for the B category - keep the 3.5 tons total but scrap going of the maximum authorized mass plates. Just because the plate says X weight doesn't mean your obliged to carry the full load...

Regulation changes are a pain, but I think in this case there's a solid safety reasoning behind it. I've done a car test, motorbike test, lorry test, and a trailer test - my parents can both drive almost everything that I can, just because they did a car test way back in the mists of time. I should be quite annoyed by this, but then I look at the average standard of driving on the roads and think 'yea, probably just as well they aren't all licensed to drive a 7.5 tonne truck with a massive trailer'.

[Clifford Pope]

I can see that doing a trailer test gives you the correct license to drive (and the skills of course), but it doesn't resolve the doubts about pulling the trailer in the first place?
Supposing your vehicle weighs 1.5 tonnes, and you want to move an empty trailer rated to carry 10 tonnes that weighed 1 tonne. Is that legal?

[w3526602]

Hi

My reading of the above is in conflict with my understanding of previous readings. I'm not going to argue about which is right .... but ... if you comply with what the plates say, you should be above reproach (even if you're wrong)

... it's a minefield ... worst case scenario? ... driving uninsured!

Can anybody here think of a way of utilising a simple torque wrench to check the weight on each wheel, and and and the tow hitch? I suspect (brain on gimbals) it should be easy on trailers weighing up to 200kg ... just poke the torque wrench into a 1/2" square hole, and lift.  My brain starts to hurt when I think about moving that hole outside the wheel plan, to get some leverage.    I'll get my coat.

I have read about "weighing" plates, but haven't the faintest idea what they are.

How about a two-pronged fork, shoved under a tyre, and the ubiquitous "Tapley" house brick as a pivot, Stand on the other end of the fork handle. If the wheel lifts, you are safe to go.

Weld a pointer onto the arm of the rubber suspension, and paint a scale on the side of the trailer?

Your move, I'll get my other coat.

602

[agg221]

Robin's posts are consistent with my own experience from 2017.

It makes sense that a towing vehicle has a maximum allowable towing weight.
It makes sense that a trailer has a maximum load capacity.
Because the combination can be changed around, it makes sense to use actual weights to establish whether a combination is fundamentally legal or not.
What I can't work out the logic behind is using plated weight rather than actual weight to determine whether a combination is legal for a particular individual to tow or not, based on their licence. It is no safer for someone without B+E to tow a fully loaded, unbraked trailer plated at 750kg MAM than an unladen braked trailer weighing 500kg but plated at 3500kg. However, this is the way that the law has been established.

In my case, I was looking at ways to mill and extract timber from a difficult site with nowhere suitable to leave a trailer. I have a pre-'97 licence, my wife's is post-'97 and my trailer has an unladen weight below 750kg but plated at 3500kg. I was looking to establish whether it was legal for her to bring the trailer over to me at the end of the day so that I could load it up and bring it back. DVSA was quite helpful and confirmed that it would be legal if I re-plated it down to 750kg and then swapped the plate before I drove it back. Screws were considered acceptable as 'permanent fixings' as required for the plate. I think I still have this in writing, but it was a few years ago so everything is subject to change. As an aside, the same job got me as far as a discussion with the construction and use team, who confirmed that on a trailer with external wheel arches, the arches count as the external dimensions of the trailer rather than the box body. This meant the difference between having to notify every police force in every county I drove back through (three within three miles of my house) as to what route I would be taking at what time, and simply driving back when convenient.

The point of the above comment is that I have found the people responsible to be quite helpful in clarifying, but specifics do seem to be rather open to re-interpretation and having something up to date in writing would be advisable before actually putting yourself in a position where you may need to have a legal discussion.

Alec

[Peter Holden]

Well said Alec
A written statement from"the horses mouth" is always best

[rustylandrovers]

Supposing your vehicle weighs 1.5 tonnes, and you want to move an empty trailer rated to carry 10 tonnes that weighed 1 tonne. Is that legal?

Practically, that's not a concern for a B or B+E licence holder. Any trailer rated at >3500kg is going to have coupled brakes, which basically means it's going to attach to a farm type tractor or a lorry type tractor unit.

That's an extreme example though. For trailers within the realms of the B+E licence, I was told when I did my B+E test that you had to match the towing vehicle to the plated max weight of the trailer. So, for example, you couldn't tow an unladen trailer which weighs 1000kg empty and is rated at max 3500kg unless the vehicle is rated to tow 3500kg.

[vod80]

There is just as much discussion about this on French websites as well. If I'm remembering correctly, everything here is done on plated weights. The difference is that the trailer has its own logbook with technical information recorded - so no chance of replating!