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Author Topic: Can we talk about ringers?  (Read 1102 times)

dartymoor

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Can we talk about ringers?
« on: April 20, 2021, 09:39:33 PM »

Quite often one comes across a vehicle that proudly claims to be "tax and mot" exempt, but clearly cannot legally be because the listed modifications go way beyond Trigger's broom territory and certainly fail the points qualification https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/historic-classic-vehicles-mot-exemption-criteria/historic-classic-vehicles-mot-exemption-criteria

This bothers me. A lot, actually. I think the Historic vehicle scheme is pretty awesome and it was a happy day when it started rolling forwards again. But the scheme is at risk from people very obviously taking the mickey out of self declaration. Landies seem especially prone to it as they've been around so long, and Series 2s the most of those.

Like this one - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-Series-2a-hybrid/333966920721

What's Series 2 about that, apart from the number plate?

So - what can I, or should I, do about it?

I have enquired of the DVLA (about another ringer), but their only suggestion was to write (paper and ink) to their Enforcement Section. The enforcement's page (no other contact details) has no information about historic vehicles at all. I get the distinct impression they don't want to know and have made it difficult to report such things.

Does the Series 2 club undertake any action to protect the integrity of Series 2's?

Does anyone have any ideas on how to report this stuff - is there actually a mechanism to do so? (Hopefully other than sending a letter)

Should I just mind my own *&%^$ business?

Genuinely interested if anyone else has thoughts on this.
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nathanglasgow

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Re: Can we talk about ringers?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2021, 11:10:24 PM »

No authority cares about this, police, DVLA ect. Ebay is a joke and awash with stolen/fake listings. They will do nothing and are only interested in money. Best we can do is post them up here and try an educate so nobody gets ripped off/conned. So many S3 sold with S2/2a identities.
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Romahomepete

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Re: Can we talk about ringers?
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2021, 06:37:54 AM »

I will not say much about this as i have done some confidential work for DVLA on suspect vehicles.

I can report them if I have the evidence.

We have a couple of club members who are having difficulties with vehicles that they have just bought that have "markers" on them.

DVLA seem to act when a vehicle changes hands and new documentation is applied for so it is the new buyer that loses out.

If a vehicle is offered for sale without a V5 ask yourself the question  Why?  Often it is because they are just moving their problem on, they have a pplied for a V5 and DVLA have found a problem so will not send one out.  Instead of sorting the problem the vehicle is just moved on and becomes someone else's problem.

If we have a scale of "wrongness" then a S3 as a S2 is at the bottom since the reason for doing it has gone.  A coiler masquerading as a leafer is at the top because it is still mostly about tax and MOT avoidance.  To complicate things some genuine S1s, S2s and S3s were converted to coils more trhan 30 years ago (converted being the word), prove that it was done then and you are legal.  Any Leafer converted to coils must go or have gone through the DVLA Radically Modified scheme (good luck with that one).

In short things do happen but it is behind the scenes

Peter
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Sunny Jim

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Re: Can we talk about ringers?
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2021, 09:41:19 AM »

There is a difference between someone who has 'radically altered a vehicle' in a way that is now a problem if you want to register it, someone who has 'backdated' one to avoid tax and one that is stolen and on a 'ringed' identity. It is actually quite sad when really nice Series 3s come up that have been 'backdated' as the original identity has probably been lost and the base vehicle is now tax exempt!

It is quite likely the 'ringed stolen' may be the hardest to spot if it is on an age appropriate identity from a scrapped vehicle, and wont show up on any kind of test as the identity will be ostensibly legitimate.

There are regular posts 'analysing' vehicles for sale which are helpful as advice for people to spot a 'wrong un', but even the best, most knowledgeable person can be caught out sometimes.

At the end of the day, we can't stop others from doing things with vehicles, it is the job of this forum to help its users avoid them! The advice is always that if the seller can't prove the legitimacy, then walk away!

Sunny Jim
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Wittsend

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Re: Can we talk about ringers?
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2021, 10:37:39 AM »

Wise words from Romahomepete and Sunny Jim ^^^^

Whilst we are here to "educate" forum users - I don't want to see endless links to vehicles being sold on eBay as "ringers".
We have to be careful - the adverts & pictures may not tell the whole story you may fall into the trap of calling anything that doesn't "look" like a Series 2/3 a ringer.
(I thought a ringer was a stolen car given another's identity - some/most of these vehicles probably started out as a Series 2 and have been "upgraded" as the example in the topic starter's post. That's not a ringer - it's tax evasion.)

To the newbie, people new to the hobby:- Do your homework, ask questions on here.

...and Peter is quite correct = no paperwork, walk away, there are plenty of genuine vehicles for sale.

Remember  :-\
It's not the Series 2 Club who make the rules up or our job to enforce the law.

If you have any concerns report the sale to eBay, there is a mechanism (I believe) to do this.
If the sale is elsewhere, report to the saleroom and the DVLA.
Be careful as if you call out some of these sellers they can get very nasty.


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Alan

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Re: Can we talk about ringers?
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2021, 10:45:58 AM »

And there I was expecting a discussion on "campanology"!
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nathanglasgow

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Craggle

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Re: Can we talk about ringers?
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2021, 01:53:32 PM »

Putting Range Rover chassis under leaf sprung vehicles has been a long time occupation and there is a company still making chassis to allow the fitment of coil springs and axles onto a series.

The one in the link above still has a series tub on it, not a 90 tub so it is a very modified series vehicle.

I agree with the MOT exemption though, they should be tested and my friend with his coil sprung, V8 powered series III complies with this and gets a yearly test.

Craig.
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22900013A

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Re: Can we talk about ringers?
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2021, 04:20:26 PM »

It certainly doesn't help that the internet, facebook especially, is awash with folks claiming "late IIAs had series 3 bulkheads and dashboards, there were crossover models/using up stock/blah black blah" who naturally refuse to relent when you point out that simply is not true. Muppetry or people deliberately trying to muddy the waters? *personally* I would not buy a "IIA" with a series 3 bulkhead, especially if the rest of it looked series 3 as well. It's a shame that lots of late IIAs and early series IIIs have lost their identities, as that way they lose their history.
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ChrisJC

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Re: Can we talk about ringers?
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2021, 04:32:21 PM »

At least part of the problem is the ridiculous MoT and Tax exemptions. They should be ditched, and all vehicles treated the same. That would remove the motivation for a lot of this dross at a stroke.

Chris.
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cswagon

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Re: Can we talk about ringers?
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2021, 04:38:02 PM »

                   

           " Built on a shortened Range Rover chassis "

             Presumably a 1961  Range Rover chassis.
             Now there's a rare thing...
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Rog-from-Bix

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Re: Can we talk about ringers?
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2021, 05:07:56 PM »

                   

           " Built on a shortened Range Rover chassis "

             Presumably a 1961  Range Rover chassis.
             Now there's a rare thing...

rocking horse doodah territory 
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22900013A

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Re: Can we talk about ringers?
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2021, 05:18:36 PM »

At least part of the problem is the ridiculous MoT and Tax exemptions. They should be ditched, and all vehicles treated the same. That would remove the motivation for a lot of this dross at a stroke.

Chris.

Or you go the European route and require the vehicle be as-built. No modifications. Our generous rules are open to pee-taking. On the continent it simply cannot be done. I'd rather have that than have to pay tax on a vehicle I only use every so often.  ???
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Wittsend

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Re: Can we talk about ringers?
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2021, 05:35:42 PM »

.... simples

Put the tax on fuel - rated according to environmental impact.

Concessions for those living in Norfolk rural areas where there is no public transport alternative.

Don't worry - it ain't going to happen.

A 1961 S2 could easily and legally have had a Range Rover chassis fitted in the '70s or '80s - many were built as trialing specials.

Without inspecting the vehicle and questioning the owner you can't really tell from pictures.
Many sellers don't know what they have, many sellers are pulling a fast one and trying to dump the thing on some unwitting mug  :shakeinghead
Descriptions are often deliberately vague.

Caveat emptor....

 
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2DieselMan

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Re: Can we talk about ringers?
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2021, 05:44:16 PM »

European Rules route is interesting as if all Land Rovers were require the vehicle be as-built, with No modifications, I would assume that factory options at the time of manufacture is allowed.

I'd be interested to know how many Land Rovers would be left, as many have had different engines, gearboxes, differentials, radiators fitted.   Some are probably even Series parts but not as-built, eg. 2 1/4 Petrol engines fitted to replace original 2 litre, 5 bearing not 3 bearing engine, etc.
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