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Main Section => Welcome to our virtual Pub Meeting ... => Topic started by: Smokey 11a on September 11, 2021, 10:19:44 AM
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New Towing Regs (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-rules-for-towing-a-trailer-or-caravan-with-a-car-from-autumn-2021?fbclid=IwAR0T3tnDE2EaoRy_fGZT1Xq2-iHGEIU4MsnVOLyYGfqrZMeOt1t-Pq5EZ5o)
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Ah, so the decision has been made then.
It will be interesting to see what consequences (if any) this has - other than for driving instructors who specialised in trailer training and are now out of a job on 10 days notice of course.
Alec
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Which is scary as I have "grandfather" rights and old codgers are just/more likely to have a trailer crash, probably using their 50/60 year old home-made lash-ups :shakeinghead
I think our forum demographic covers most with grandfather rights.
I understand you can now get an HGV license after a couple of days - always fancied driving a big lorry :shakeinghead
What with "Smart Motorways" (an oxymoron if ever there was) life is going to be fun in the fast lane.
Mind how you go ....
:plod
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Pretty sure it will have little to no effect...
I attended a drivers awareness course about 10 yrs ago where I discovered that I may have been infrequently the wrong side of the law - until that point, and having towed all my life I didn't even realise there was a specific test. Anyways, I brought the average age of the course down by about 30 yrs - many of the 'grandfathers rights' approved people (a few who towed caravans regularly) got very poor scores on the towing questions.
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Spare a thought for those who spent £500+ on a trailer test in recent years. I don't have "grandfather rights" on my license and just before the pandemic had decided to book a course of lessons with a local instructor who specialises in trailer training. Needless to say I'm rather glad I didn't!.
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I've been to the govt website and confirmed I am down as having a full licence, covering tracked vehicles, rollers, the lot.
But what I can't see is anything that says when I actually passed the test. How do I find out, or am I missing the obvious somewhere?
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According to the Gov web site the date the change comes in hasn't been confirmed yet . I don't think the web site states when one passed a test, neither does it say on a driving licence , only when its valid.
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According to the Gov web site the date the change comes in hasn't been confirmed yet . I don't think the web site states when one passed a test, neither does it say on a driving licence , only when its valid.
If you look at the back of the photo licence the valid from date is date you passed your test ** may 87 in my case
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My licence was valid from Mar. 2020 as that was when it was issued , test taken Jan 1965. Now over 70 so have to renew every 3 yrs.
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As someone who just missed out of being able to pass before 1997 I’m pleased that I will now be able to tow. Doing the B+E test was something I was always going to do at some point, now I’m glad I am bad for putting things off!
As from a safety point of view, older drivers are able to tow (and drive minibuses and LGV up to 7.5 tons) with ‘grandfather rights’. As I was almost run off the road twice on the way home from work today by oldies barely able to see over the steering wheel, I can’t see it being any worse than a 17 year old towing a trailer.
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If over 70, C1 and D1: class vehicles can only be driven subject to s medical. I didn't bother as I can still drive B+E up to a maximum train weight of 8.25 ton.
I still have my full motorcycle license too.
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I passed my test after 1997, so never got the grandfather rights, although I do tow large trailers for work (on private land I may add…) on an almost daily basis. I’ve never ended up doing the B+E test, although it was always on the cards and I was planning to do it this coming year. A colleague did his test about 6 weeks ago and although these changes were rumoured, nothing was confirmed.
Regardless, in the industry I work in, this has the potential of being a good thing. We have a touring park, and have noticed the number of caravans dwindling over the years as those with grandfather rights become too old to drive, or tow, and the younger generations being largely unable to tow touring caravans without additional testing. There seem to be far more motorhomes, converted vans and teardrop trailers about at the moment.
We also work closely with some of the larger manufacturers of touring caravans, and the younger generation being unable to tow has been a rising concern for them for a long while now.
I can’t say that I think annual or biannual testing of trailers and caravans (like a very basic roadworthiness test) would be a bad thing though. Some of the death traps we have arrive are very concerning. Also the lack of understanding of some people on towing weights etc. Just today we had a large twin axle caravan arrive, being towed by a convertible beetle, with the tow ball scraping the ground as it came in. You honestly couldn’t write it!!
That being said, I really do feel for those who have built businesses around trailer training and preparation for the tests, as much of their business will be decimated with very little warning.
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If you look at the back of the photo licence the valid from date is date you passed your test ** may 87 in my case
That can't be correct. I can't make anything of the information there. The earliest date that makes sense is against the picture of a car, 10 Feb 1976. But I passed my test in 1966, when I was 17. Where is that information stated?
The date next to the thing that looks like a bicycle with an engine on the back wheel is 27/8/15. Is that 2015 or 1915? The thing that looks like a vintage motorbike says 19 January 2013, or perhaps 1913 would be more appropriate.
I am often asked on insurance forms etc to state the date when I passed the test. I know the year, but not the month. How can I find that out - or have the DVLA lost all the pre-computerisation information?
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……….. and old codgers are just/more likely to have a trailer crash,
Don’t know about that. Worst local case was a young, tested lad who tipped a tri-axle Ifor Williams on the M4.
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Personally, I don’t think age comes into it that much. Old, young, male, female plenty in all groups who aren’t capable of reversing or parking a standard car let alone handling a coupled trailer.
I challenge even the most experienced trailer user to say that they have never come unstuck or almost unstuck with a trailer. We’ve all experienced it I’m sure.
In my view, removing the need for basic training on how to operate any form of trailer is sheer stupidity. How is somebody with little or no experience supposed to be able to understand, nose weights, wag, tyre pressures, balance, loading etc.? Seems like a recipe for disaster in my book.
Seems like our great and glorious leaders have come up with another ludicrous ruse to go with smart motorways and dropping testing of older vehicles… What happens when somebody inexperienced, loses control of a 3500kg trailer behind an untested old Land Rover on a smart motorway? That will get the legal eagles thinking!
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I’ve seen this on facecloth and it sounds like there will be some ( many ? ) businesses who currently offer B+E training who will suddenly lose their income ( or a part of it ) . Maybe the Driving instructors association and the Motor Schools Association et al should start talking to the Insurers and their relative associations about some sort of voluntary scheme whereby the driver training industry could still instruct trailer towing for money and newly trained Trailer Towing Drivers could get some sort of discount , thereby helping to protect income for instructors , give some reassurance to insurers that their policyholders had been given some appropriate training and also encourage drivers to take some further training in the hope that they could save some money on insurance .
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I have "grandfather rights" and am entitled to tow a trailer on the road, I am absolutely rubbish at it! Diffwhine is right, it's not age, sex or anything else related, some of us are better at some thing than others.
I used to use the Civic Amenity Site (Council Tip to everyone other than a politician) at East Grinstead in Sussex.
I could spend ages watching the ballet (for that's what it was) of the drivers moving the large waste containers around.
Their skill was only matched by the Budgens delivery driver reversing a 40ft artic into the delivery bay at the local store. He (and it was a man) had only 7 inches of overall clearance on the width and had to reverse in a straight line around 30ft to unload. He did this nearly every day for around 10 years before he retired.
Practice is essential, but if you are like me, no amount of practice seems to make a difference, but don't worry, I don't tow anything anymore. To misquote Clint Eastwood "this man's got to know his limitations"
Stay safe and good luck
BW
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Personally, I don’t think age comes into it that much. Old, young, male, female plenty in all groups who aren’t capable of reversing or parking a standard car let alone handling a coupled trailer.
I challenge even the most experienced trailer user to say that they have never come unstuck or almost unstuck with a trailer. We’ve all experienced it I’m sure.
In my view, removing the need for basic training on how to operate any form of trailer is sheer stupidity. How is somebody with little or no experience supposed to be able to understand, nose weights, wag, tyre pressures, balance, loading etc.? Seems like a recipe for disaster in my book.
Seems like our great and glorious leaders have come up with another ludicrous ruse to go with smart motorways and dropping testing of older vehicles… What happens when somebody inexperienced, loses control of a 3500kg trailer behind an untested old Land Rover on a smart motorway? That will get the legal eagles thinking!
Absolutely agree! I think this is an utterly stupid and misguided idea. I suppose if we want to add a bit of colour, the haulage industry have suddenly announced they are desperately short of class 1 drivers , the government response is to make it easier to get a class 1 ticket, drop the class 2 requirement and abandon trailer testing so the testers can be used to process all the class 1 applications they are anticipating. The headlines tell us some firms have finally decided to pay truck drivers a half decent wage. I still wouldn't do it, as the being treated like dirt by all and sundry, and the lack of any real employment benefits (decent pension, sick pay for example) are not something I'm interested in getting involved with.
I'm sure we will soon enough see more serious accidents with trailers, followed by government backpedalling. That said, there has been next to no police presence on the roads anyway, its all been reactive to incidents rather then trying to prevent them happening in the first place.
An older Landrover shouldn't be towing 3500kg anyway, not on overrun brakes at least - but when was the last time you saw a coupled brakes set up on a series?
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Personally, I don’t think age comes into it that much. Old, young, male, female plenty in all groups who aren’t capable of reversing or parking a standard car let alone handling a coupled trailer.
I challenge even the most experienced trailer user to say that they have never come unstuck or almost unstuck with a trailer. We’ve all experienced it I’m sure.
In my view, removing the need for basic training on how to operate any form of trailer is sheer stupidity. How is somebody with little or no experience supposed to be able to understand, nose weights, wag, tyre pressures, balance, loading etc.? Seems like a recipe for disaster in my book.
Seems like our great and glorious leaders have come up with another ludicrous ruse to go with smart motorways and dropping testing of older vehicles… What happens when somebody inexperienced, loses control of a 3500kg trailer behind an untested old Land Rover on a smart motorway? That will get the legal eagles thinking!
I agree with you.
.W.
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An older Landrover shouldn't be towing 3500kg anyway, not on overrun brakes at least - but when was the last time you saw a coupled brakes set up on a series?
True for Series, but in two year's time, early One Tens will become MOT exempt... And I think the early Range Rover Classics had 3500 kg towing capacity...
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That can't be correct. I can't make anything of the information there. The earliest date that makes sense is against the picture of a car, 10 Feb 1976. But I passed my test in 1966, when I was 17. Where is that information stated?
The date next to the thing that looks like a bicycle with an engine on the back wheel is 27/8/15. Is that 2015 or 1915? The thing that looks like a vintage motorbike says 19 January 2013, or perhaps 1913 would be more appropriate.
I am often asked on insurance forms etc to state the date when I passed the test. I know the year, but not the month. How can I find that out - or have the DVLA lost all the pre-computerisation information?
All I can say is all the dates on mine are the same (test pass date) apart from the motorbike ones. All the expiries are the same.
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I can’t say that I don’t think annual or biannual testing of trailers and caravans (like a very basic roadworthiness test) would be a bad thing though. Some of the death traps we have arrive are very concerning. Also the lack of understanding of some people on towing weights etc. Just today we had a large twin axle caravan arrive, being towed by a convertible beetle, with the tow ball scraping the ground as it came in. You honestly couldn’t write it!!
Yes, I would concur with that. I bought my trailer cheaply up in Yorkshire. I knew it would need some work but worked on the basis it would weigh under 750kg so could be towed back down the A1 reasonably enough and then get a good going over. It's a good thing I did - none of the brakes worked and one had no internals! When it was sorted it went over a weighbridge and I knew what load I could then put in it that the car could handle. The parts I didn't pick up on were how the handbrake and breakaway cable interacted - there was definitely one occasion where if something had gone wrong the brake would not have come on because of the way I had loaded it.
Alec
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Hi,
I can recommend FREEDOM caravans ... GRP body, and galvanised chassis. Adequate for two, and there is a 4-berth version. MGW = 750kgs. There is something in my mind that they make/made an unbraked version.
I assume that the law will get round the confusing definitions concerning MAXIMUM WEIGHT, MGW. ALW, Kerb Weight, etc.
I'll ask again... IF you tow a trailer that is heavier than the new entitlement, will you be driving without a licence ... and therefore not be insured?
I suspect that the ULW of a Series is less (or could be contrived to be less) than 30cwt, so would not be allowed to tow an unbraked trailer with a MGW of15cwt
602
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Hi Alec,
I assume we all know that there are two types of breakaway cable?
One type is for use on trailers with no brakes, so that if the trailer detaches, it stays with the tug.
The other type is intended to pull the trailers parking brake on ... and then snaps. One hopes the hand-brake ratchet is in good working order.
ALL trailers must have one or the other.
Me? I usually fix a seat-belt eye-bolt to somewhere substantial, and fit a sturdy "cock-eye" to the cable or chain.
I've owned old horse-boxes, where the brake ratchet was engaged manually, while you pulled the lever with the other hand. ???
602
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All I can say is all the dates on mine are the same (test pass date) apart from the motorbike ones. All the expiries are the same.
But you passed post-1976 I think you said?
Is there anywhere that holds a record of the actual date of my pass in 1966?
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The local council where you took your test may have archived the paper records ( If there were any) , may be worth contacting them. My test was in Birmingham and the local office where my licence was issued was in Oozels Street , I used to have all my old little Red licence books but they got mislaid in a house move.
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So basically there is no record, except involving lucky detective work, of anyone ever discovering, or verifying, the date when I passed my driving test?
The only proof that I have ever passed relies on an assumption of someone's transposition of information from an old paper licence at some unknown time in the past many decades ago? Supposing my right to drive were challenged - how would I prove I had passed a test?
Or conversely, supposing I put the wrong date on a form, or even invented a totally fictitious test pass on say 3 March 1977, no one could prove it false or prosecute me for the pretence?
In an otherwise totally oppresive bureaucratic state, that's strangely comforting to know. :)
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There is, I understand, some debate as to whether our proposal to water down the testing regime for drivers will have any validity if driving outside the UK. Something to consider if you are contemplating using the new system to kickstart a career driving lorries across the continent, or taking a caravan over the water.
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If you passed your car driving test from 1 January 1997, you’ll be allowed to tow trailers up to 3,500kg MAM when the law changes.
DVLA will update your driving licence record to show that you’re allowed to tow trailers. You’ll get category BE added to your driving licence when you get a new photocard driving licence.
You do not need to contact DVLA for this to happen. It will be done automatically.
From Gov web site I think if towing abroad one will need to apply for a new photocard license to reflect the change as they wont be issuing a new one automatically.
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There is, I understand, some debate as to whether our proposal to water down the testing regime for drivers will have any validity if driving outside the UK. Something to consider if you are contemplating using the new system to kickstart a career driving lorries across the continent, or taking a caravan over the water.
I wonder what those who used to frown on Eastern European drivers and hint that their testing standards were not as good as ours will say when the first "new batch" driver reverses into something expensive...
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But you passed post-1976 I think you said?
Is there anywhere that holds a record of the actual date of my pass in 1966?
Hi Clifford, I passed my test in 1973 and the day/month/year are on the back of my licence. That date is written against the following entitlements - B- B1- BE - C1 - C1E - D1 - D1E (& FKINPQ what ever that is) and the date I passed my HGV test.
Its puzzling why your licence doesn't have that same info
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I'll ask again... IF you tow a trailer that is heavier than the new entitlement, will you be driving without a licence ... and therefore not be insured?
I suspect that the ULW of a Series is less (or could be contrived to be less) than 30cwt, so would not be allowed to tow an unbraked trailer with a MGW of15cwt
602
I don't understand your point here, you will be allowed to tow a trailer upto 3500kg gross without having to take a test. It is upto you to then determine what your vehicle is allowed to tow. For a series it is 500kg unbraked, 2000kg on overrun brakes, then 3500kg or 4000kg with coupled brakes. The last two are irrelevant anyway as nobody has coupled brakes.
The weights will be in the owners handbook of the specific vehicle. There is no "formula" for you to calculate it, some small cars cannot tow anything, for everything else it really does vary. More modern vehicles list the GTW on the VIN plate, but you still have to find out the thresholds for the various braking requirements.
Of course if you just tow whatever you fancy without complying with the manufacturers specs you could be driving illegally and therefore uninsured.
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I wonder what those who used to frown on Eastern European drivers and hint that their testing standards were not as good as ours will say when the first "new batch" driver reverses into something expensive...
I agree, and from my experience, working for an HGV driver agency, European drivers, that is non-UK drivers, are just as good or as bad as UK drivers e.g. one left the haulage yard in said lorry only to return minutes later asking the owner "how to make it go faster", poor chap didn't know how to move the gears up from low to high range by flicking a switch on the side of the gear stick :thud He probably got his licence on the cheap from some bloke in a pub.
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Hi Clifford, I passed my test in 1973 and the day/month/year are on the back of my licence. That date is written against the following entitlements - B- B1- BE - C1 - C1E - D1 - D1E (& FKINPQ what ever that is) and the date I passed my HGV test.
Its puzzling why your licence doesn't have that same info
My old licence was replaced by the paper pink licence on 14 April 1976, and it says "valid from 14 4 1976".
The replacement photocard licence says "valid from 18 2 76", as does its recent over 70 licence replacement.
I've never given any thought to the non-mention of when I actually passed the test, assuming that would be held somewhere by the DVLA central records, and had nothing to do with the date of issue of any of the later replacement licences. Obviously I'd have thought a licence can't be retrospectively valid from before its issue date.
It's only just struck me as odd that it seems there is no way of checking the date of passing the test - it must mean that numerous insurance companies dating back 50 years have taken my word for it without checking, as well as organisations using it for identity checking.
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I forget the exact name for it - I think it’s called the check code service and this should give you the dates when you gained all your entitlements.
I had to do it for the exchange of my UK licence into the French version as I wanted to keep my trailer and light HGV privileges…
Quite interesting reading!
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I’ve heard that a Cycling Proficiency Test can now be upgraded to HGV entitlement. ???
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I’ve heard that a Cycling Proficiency Test can now be upgraded to HGV entitlement. ???
I'm tempted to make a comment about screeching U-Turns but that would stray into Politics...
:-X
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Good news then - I'm there ahead of the queue .... ;)
(http://www.series2club.co.uk/gallery/technical/images/cycling%20proficiency%20certificate.jpg)
:RHD
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I forget the exact name for it - I think it’s called the check code service and this should give you the dates when you gained all your entitlements.
I've just used that service. (License Check Code service) It says all my entitlements are valid from 2019, which is when I renewed at age 70.
No mention of when I qualified for those entitlements, nor of when I passed my test.
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I've just tried getting a code, to see if that gives more information.
Under cars, it just says valid from "before 18 February 1976".
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Further update to my enquiry from DVLA: They hold no records before 1976, so it is not possible to discover the date when I passed the driving test, nor the date when I added any other additional categories before 1976.
It appears therefore that I am free to invent any date I like, and no one can prove it wrong. :)
In those days it was received advice that one needed 1 hour of tuition per year of one's age, so my parents bought me 17 BSM driving lessons as a 17th birthday present and I duly passed. No other practice was deemed necessary - indeed it was advised that tuition by a parent say who quite possibly had never passed a test themselves was likely to be confusing and counterproductive.
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How can I find that out - or have the DVLA lost all the pre-computerisation information?
Hi,
To the best of my knowledge (I started at DVLC in 1972), we did not receive any history when a driver moved over to the computer system. You just sent in your old licence, an application form, and the fee. The Driver System went LIVE, I think, in 1974.
The Vehicle System went live maybe a couple of years later, but initially, you dealt with your Local Office, and they sent everything to DVLC.
I say to the best of my knowledge ... I was aware of most things that were going on, including many ad hoc decisions, such as dumping thousands of "notification of sale" cards, and I personally helped my team dispose of tons of the old green log books. (I personally returned some very interesting log-books back to the owners, paying for the stamps myself. Probably a "disciplinary offence" if caught).
Some of our older readers may remember their Local Office cancelling their grubby old VE60 (I think), and returning it with a nice new copy. It was only later that I realised it was so the DVLC Data Input clerks could key the data onto paper tape, at 13,000 keystrokes per hour (allowed 1 error per 1000 key strokes. Every document was keyed twice, and the results compared).
One of my girls could maintain 36,000ks per hour, with NO errors, which was embarrassing. She spent too long walking to her manager's desk to collect fresh work ... which was logged by the clever keyboard. The solution was to allow her to collect three batches of work at a time.
I devised a system that allowed me to see at a glance how often any one of my girls had visited the ladies room, how long she had spent there, and who she had met while there. Similarly with days off sick. I didn't implement either ... my girls under enough stress as it was.
All verbal warnings were recorded on personal files. I received one such warning (in the RAF it would have been a commendation). I'd put myself in an "iffy" situation, to prevent all of DVLA coming to a standstill, by climbing into the paternoster system). The sealed envelope travelled with me when I moved to a new branch. My new boss handed it to me, unopened, said he didn't want to see it.
602
DVLA's "avowed intent" was to collect taxes, and help fight vehicle crime. Any help given to enthusiasts would be from the goodness of somebody's heart.