S2C Forum Archives
Main Section => Welcome to our virtual Pub Meeting ... => Topic started by: LN11AAB498A on September 13, 2021, 06:41:10 PM
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In another topic named New Rules for Towing a Trailer Wittsend made this interesting comment "I think our forum demographic covers most with grandfather rights".
I think he was suggesting most of us are a lot of old codgers. But nonetheless I would be interested to see the make-up of the club in terms of age and location. For example, how many of us are under 20, 20 to 30, 30 to 40 and so on right up to Old Codger category.
I've often pondered why do so many choose not to show their age. I completely respect an individuals choice not to divulge personal information, its just that I don't understand why age should be so secret.
I would also be interested to see the spread of members (numbers not names) by county/region/north/south/east/west etc.
Genem :tiphat, if you feel I`m trying to give you extra work you have my permission to tell this old codger to go take a nap :sleep
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I'm basing my observations on some of the past towing postings on the forum. People trying to dream up ways to dodge the regulations and the pictures of some towing rigs :shakeinghead
What can a Series Land Rover tow etc.
From someone who finds it easier to unhitch his Sankey and turn it round by hand rather than try to reverse it :shakeinghead
You can see why motorhomes and camper van sales are on the increase, a market that didn't really exist until a few years ago, Dormobiles excepted.
:caravan
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In another topic named New Rules for Towing a Trailer Wittsend made this interesting comment "I think our forum demographic covers most with grandfather rights".
I think he was suggesting most of us are a lot of old codgers. But nonetheless I would be interested to see the make-up of the club in terms of age and location. For example, how many of us are under 20, 20 to 30, 30 to 40 and so on right up to Old Codger category.
I've often pondered why do so many choose not to show their age. I completely respect an individuals choice not to divulge personal information, its just that I don't understand why age should be so secret.
I would also be interested to see the spread of members (numbers not names) by county/region/north/south/east/west etc.
Genem :tiphat, if you feel I`m trying to give you extra work you have my permission to tell this old codger to go take a nap :sleep
'Age is just a number' - apparently attributed to Joan Collins
Frankly - I think age is irrelevant.
As for it being a 'secret' - well I am happy to reveal mine.
I am 18 and have been for years!
I suspect trawling the club member database for this info might be an issue re GDPR :agh
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If you look at members' details Wittsend is 666 years old and I am 954 years old.
Any other really old codgers out there?
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I'm over 21.
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'Age is just a number' - apparently attributed to Joan Collins
Frankly - I think age is irrelevant.
As for it being a 'secret' - well I am happy to reveal mine.
I am 18 and have been for years!
I suspect trawling the club member database for this info might be an issue re GDPR :agh
I am certainly not suggesting the club database be trawled. I suspect a members age will only be available if the member has registered it at the time of their joining the club, personal choice must always be respected.
Age is only irrelevant if you're not interested in advancing the club to the young because unless we do, the club will wither as we oldies die. My OP may have been light-hearted but without knowing our demographic how can we hope to manage the clubs future.
You are to be congratulated, I suspect not too many 18 year olds will be wanting an old S11 as a babe magnet. The future of classic car clubs will be in the hands of others like you :tiphat
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I suspect trawling the club member database for this info might be an issue re GDPR :agh
No, I don't think so - the graph I'm attaching below cannot be linked to any individuals personal details. Caveat, we have no data on members who joined prior to "Crossmember" going live in autumn 2019 and 39 of our members have numbers sub 100, so almost certainly joined in the mid 1980s.... Anyway, for what its worth, the spread of ages recorded on Crossmember peaks at about 50 with a decent spread either side. This reflects pretty accurately who is currently joining the Club. Why do we collect the data ? To give us a clue as to the demographic we are catering for.
Note that anyone who wants to add or change information about them on Crossmember can easily do so - go to "How to Join" on the main website, and follow the purple "update..." button to change phone-numbers, email etc or add vehicles to the Register. You can also change your address, add a family member and so on. Saves me doing it ! :-X
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Interesting post
One thing that I noticed from my visit to the Club National Rally at Ripon, was the larger than I thought there would be, numbers of under 60s, females and under 20s
Gene has some stats, but, prior to the new system, age is not a commonly recorded bit of info.
Nevertheless, Gene has some (to me) surprising info on this very subject.
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Slightly OT, but still JLR.😉
I do meet a few Jag owners in my job, and most are older Gentlemen.🙂
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I was 19 or 20 when I bought my 2a project as my first car, and will have it for the rest of my life. It's a dog but I could never sell it, even if it has appreciated by 900%. 31 now and on to my 2nd woman deterrent.
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Same as George above, bought mine at 18. Paid £800, back when prices were relatively sensible making it accessible for a teenager to get one. Now 32 and mine isn’t going anywhere. Also now have a second project, which was intending to keep me busy but haven’t really made a start on it yet after stripping it!
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Already, I just updated my age, I do not know why I had not put it before ..
Age is a number, the higher, the more experience you have, and the more you can contribute to the youngest
Personally, I am very grateful for all the information that the members of this club have kindly given me, in a disinterested and very friendly way, if I were closer, I would very much like to participate in their events and green outings.
Greetings.
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Knowing the age profile of our club members helps us in our future planing - how many Zimmer frames and incontinence bags to order :nursey
Not giving your age is a bit like pixelating your number plate.
It's not mandatory for membership of the club to give your age.
Likewise it would help us to know how you "found" the club.
:cheers
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just updated,
It must have all reset on the new forum.
*&%^$ 50 next month!! I think I joined in my 30's.
Cheers
Jamie
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I have just updated my profile to include my age, I didn't realise I hadn't already done so! Anyway I'm 42.
As for age being just a number I disagree, I have worked with a large cross section of people over the years (I have been in employment since I was 14) plus I live in an area with large number of retirees and in my experience there exists a certain attitude among many of the older generation toward not only younger folks but life in general, it is hard to pin down but comes across as an arrogant self righteousness and sense of entitlement. "Baby boomers" in particular seem unable to comprehend any other point of view or accept that the world is changing. I treat everyone the same but I have unfortunately met more seriously unpleasant pensioners than I have younger people.
I would suggest we have seen this attitude manifest here on the forum recently with some responses to posts from first time owners asking basic but valid questions, e.g. "just Google it" or "do your own research" is not an appropriate response and likely puts the person off asking questions in future, it also IMHO gives the impression, rightly or wrongly that the club consists of a lot of old codgers who don't want to share knowledge or help new/younger members.
Finally Alan if you are referring to the comment I made about a Sankey being easy to move around the yard by hand perhaps I should provide some context. My yard is fairly small and with a number of vehicles parked it is simply quicker and easier to shift the trailer by hand. Living a mile from the main road up a single track lane reversing a trailer for long distances is a skill I soon learned :RHD
From someone who finds it easier to unhitch his Sankey and turn it round by hand rather than try to reverse it :shakeinghead
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Interesting comments from Matt ^^^^^
As a boomer myself we were brought up to be polite and respectful.
Actually, the Board is chewing over what to do about us looking like a bunch of grumpy old codgers, coz the reality is not that at all, with growing numbers of younger people and women, which is great to see. And it’s a perennial topic of discussion, and a huge amount of work takes place, on moderating comments on forums and FB. I think covid made us all a lot grumpier at times.
Like Matt, I cringe at the “just Google it” comments and the brush offs and put downs. Especially on FB these are often not club members, and beware of assuming grumpy comments must be from old people… it’s hard to know the age of the writer for sure.
Totally agree on the Sankey, those things spin on a sixpence moved by hand, great bits of kit! Why hook em up when you don’t need to?
I think we need to focus on “Be Nice” and a “If you can’t think of anything nice to say then don’t say it”.
S
X
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I suspect that is pretty much the graph curve you would get for any hobby or interest, especially those requiring a moderate degree of surplus income.
Young people, in general, have better things to do with their lives. Old people are tending to draw in the range of activities they take part in, for health or other reasons. In between at about age 50 you get people with most disposable income, more free time, possibly wives similarly pursuing their own interests (yoga, etc) and a general feeling of now at last they can indulge in some of the things in retrospect they would have wanted to do when younger, and are still fit enough to pursue.
So you get a bell-shaped curve, as with most things.
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Finally Alan if you are referring to the comment I made about a Sankey being easy to move around the yard by hand perhaps I should provide some context. My yard is fairly small and with a number of vehicles parked it is simply quicker and easier to shift the trailer by hand. Living a mile from the main road up a single track lane reversing a trailer for long distances is a skill I soon learned :RHD
That’s interesting you said that because I read it as it was Alan who found it easier to turn a Sankey trailer round by hand. That’s the problem with a forum, the meaning isn’t always perfectly clear and that could easily apply to grumpiness as well, some posts my come across as grumpy but were never intended to be interpreted that way.
I’m a great believer in what Sue said as well, if you can’t say anything nice then don’t say anything.
Unless your spelling is atrocious then you deserve everything you get.
Don’t panic, I’m only joking.
😂😂
Andrew
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Some really interesting comments in here...
First point from me is that there is no substitute for experience. That said, you can't get experience without opportunity. I was lucky, in that early on in my LR interest, a wonderful Ghanaian man who is now one of my oldest friends, took this spotty nosed enthusiastic kid under his wing at his workshop in London and taught me a great deal. Most importantly he taught me how to get round problems with limited resources and that is something I still hold dear. We as older people, must give that opportunity to younger people or they will never get involved.
It does distress me when people make unhelpful comments on line. The ethos of any club should be to make all welcome and to support all. The confidence gained from people supporting as a team is vitally important. Many of the mechanical skills that put these vehicles on the road in the beginning are being lost and its vital that those of us with the knowledge pass it on to those less able or confident. As I said in a previous post, there is no obligation to answer any post on a forum, so in my view, if there isn't anything productive or positive to add, its best not to comment. That way, the useful stuff gets through and all feel supported and welcome.
There will be times when some will take the proverbial, from my perspective, encouraging younger people to get involved in this is vital to the survival of our vehicles and our Club. I for one will do all I can to encourage that. I don't get a feeling of this club being stuffy although there are similar clubs (which I won't name) which definitely impart that image. What does concern me is the fact that the demographic shows that most members are around my age (53) and we seem to be struggling to bring younger members on board. My guess is that this is mainly due to the ludicrously inflated prices of old LRs at the moment, and also from what I read from another post on young people's insurance. Neither was an issue 30+ years ago when I started this game.
As an aside, I shudder when I see some suggestions on line when using any search engine or You Tube. Some actions are downright foolhardy and dangerous. The more we can do on this forum to counteract this has to be positive.
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...., possibly wives similarly pursuing their own interests (yoga, etc)
Nice bit of random sexism there, well done.
:thud
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^^^^^
:ditto
:-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
If I had a husband I wonder what interests he would be pursuing?
Don't anyone answer that!!!
s
x
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That’s interesting you said that because I read it as it was Alan who found it easier to turn a Sankey trailer round by hand. That’s the problem with a forum, the meaning isn’t always perfectly clear and that could easily apply to grumpiness as well, some posts my come across as grumpy but were never intended to be interpreted that way.
😂😂
Andrew
That's exactly what I meant. I was denigrating my own towing skills.
Anyone who has a Sankey knows that revering with it is like pushing spaghetti.
I don't tow much these days.
At our tip it is easy-peasy to unhitch and push the Sankey over to the skips.
Less time and inconvenience to other tippers.
My Sankey tows level and straight - it's a delight to tow. Whereas you see all sorts out on the road; nose up, tail down, wiggle - waggle. Maybe the modern towing aids make bad towing too easy :shakeinghead
Regarding grumpiness:
I read somewhere a few weeks ago (Mail online so that invalidates anything) a big survey that concluded grumpiness doesn't get worse with age. Grumpiness is with you from the start vs happiness and calmness.
I think this forum is very kind and tolerant to newbies. More so when you look at other forums and the Wild West of Facebook.
Over the years we've had thousands of posts from hundreds of users. For sure we get the odd one, Some people just take the biscuit but they are the exception.
This is regarded, as one of the best moderated forums, and has been for some years.
It's not just down to me and the helpers - it's down to our forum community at large :first
The forum is massive and no one person can read all the new stuff that comes in every day - we try.
It is sometimes hard to put things into context, as per my towing comments.
I do wonder how long a forum such as this will keep going and be relevant when up against other online outlets.
:RHD
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well, me and my brother are early 20s, we've had and been around land rovers all our lives and we have our own we are building up now, thankfully got them before prices went insane. the real problem is finding time to actually work on them, between other things and the rain.
the thing i see with land rovers is this, at least series and old defenders, is young or old, rich or poor, they will have a land rover. its a universal bridge between everyone, or at least it was.
we'll see how the future holds for that statement.
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Being a Site Administrator on the Series 3 forum I welcome newcomers with the mantra. "No question on this forum is ever thought of as being a stupid one so ask away. " That's what we're here for, to help and encourage others in our pastime.
There is one annoying thing and that's when you offer help to anyone and they don't respond.
I am NOT an expert, I hate that word. There's far too many of them about each contradicting the other. I class myself as "knowledgeable but willing to learn" and I' m not too proud to admit that I don't know the answer or that I'm wrong.
No age admitted but I have to renew my driving licence every 3 years.
Oh, and I haven't got the knack of reversing a 4 wheel trailer where the front wheels steer. I've tried reversing one once behind a tractor and ended up in a z shape.
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That's exactly what I meant. I was denigrating my own towing skills.
Anyone who has a Sankey knows that revering with it is like pushing spaghetti.
Exactly, Being short and difficult to see a Sankey is not ideal for reversing but easy to move on a hard surface, if unladen!. I also treat the 8x4 unbraked trailer as an overgrown wheelbarrow, generally far easier to detach and twirl about than try to reverse. The twin-axle Ifor Williams, being that bit longer, is easier to reverse, not least because the tall ramp on the back means its easy to see where it is relative to the vehicle ! ( Annoyingly difficult at night tho, with the white "position" lights on the front blinding any attempt to see the back... I've disabled mine for that reason).
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Nice bit of random sexism there, well done.
:thud
Sexism means judging people's actions etc by reference to their sex. Observing that 90% of the people in my wife's yoga group are women is simply a fact, not sexist at all. One of the factors behind my time spent in the shed is that quite rightly, she has her own interests that often differ from mine.
"Nice bit of random ----ism there" is simply ismism, and a hackneyed old one at that. :)
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Does Gene's graph include the ages of all the members in a family membership?
If it doesn't then the ages of the teenage enthusiasts in the family will not register and the club's age profile will be skewed upwards.
Club policy based on age may then be misdirected. Too many Zimmer frames and incontinence pads for example.
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Does Gene's graph include the ages of all the members in a family membership?
If it doesn't then the ages of the teenage enthusiasts in the family will not register and the club's age profile will be skewed upwards.
Club policy based on age may then be misdirected. Too many Zimmer frames and incontinence pads for example.
Would the incontinence pads be for the Land Rovers or their owners? Even with all the oils drained out, one of mine appears to be requiring two pads...
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Sexism means judging people's actions etc by reference to their sex. Observing that 90% of the people in my wife's yoga group are women is simply a fact, not sexist at all. One of the factors behind my time spent in the shed is that quite rightly, she has her own interests that often differ from mine.
"Nice bit of random ----ism there" is simply ismism, and a hackneyed old one at that. :)
You made no such observation, your comment was a sexist stereotype.
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Oh for heaven's sake let's stay away from accusing people of stereotyping. (Stereotypes do not come from nowhere).
I was almost always the only male in my yoga class. Am I even allowed to say that! :shakeinghead
One person's "liberalism" is another person's fascism.
I actually came on here to say that, after quite a few years on this and the earlier forum, I have seen remarkably few rude comments to new or young people.
Such remarks would be heavily moderated anyway. (Can't speak for the FB page though).
It has also been clear that the Club forum has been a huge source of freely-given help to so many people, young and old over the years.
And I don't think it is particularly grumpy on a specialist Land Rover forum to wince at them being described as Jeeps! :agh :neener
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That's exactly what I meant. I was denigrating my own towing skills.
Anyone who has a Sankey knows that revering with it is like pushing spaghetti.
My apologies Alan for getting hold of the wrong end of the stick, and that's a very good analogy!.
Matt.
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I have just updated my profile to include my age, I didn't realise I hadn't already done so! Anyway I'm 42.
As for age being just a number I disagree, I have worked with a large cross section of people over the years (I have been in employment since I was 14) plus I live in an area with large number of retirees and in my experience there exists a certain attitude among many of the older generation toward not only younger folks but life in general, it is hard to pin down but comes across as an arrogant self righteousness and sense of entitlement. "Baby boomers" in particular seem unable to comprehend any other point of view or accept that the world is changing. I treat everyone the same but I have unfortunately met more seriously unpleasant pensioners than I have younger people.
I would suggest we have seen this attitude manifest here on the forum recently with some responses to posts from first time owners asking basic but valid questions, e.g. "just Google it" or "do your own research" is not an appropriate response and likely puts the person off asking questions in future, it also IMHO gives the impression, rightly or wrongly that the club consists of a lot of old codgers who don't want to share knowledge or help new/younger members.
Finally Alan if you are referring to the comment I made about a Sankey being easy to move around the yard by hand perhaps I should provide some context. My yard is fairly small and with a number of vehicles parked it is simply quicker and easier to shift the trailer by hand. Living a mile from the main road up a single track lane reversing a trailer for long distances is a skill I soon learned :RHD
Interesting.... here in my part of the world (with the exception of the "just Google it" and "do your own research" aspect), it's basically the exact opposite. I live in a community that's just about evenly split - young vs old. Around here, the younger ones of the bunch, say late 20s and younger, are incredibly arrogant, full of self righteousness and have a major sense of entitlement. These youngsters, and I'm not saying all of them, just the most vocal, are starting to say the older generation should be forced out of their jobs by the age of 50 in order to make room for them. They are also pushing that once a person reaches 60 certain medical resources should no longer be wasted on them, they are a drain on medical resources. They are demanding so much from the country, claiming they have a right, are entitled, yet they don't seem to grasp that economies don't work like they want and can't seem to realize the money for everything they want has to come from somewhere. This sentiment by the younger generations isn't isolated to my area either, in fact, my area is a bit more conservative. In the bigger cities hate crimes against those of retirement age and older are on the rise.
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^^^^^
:ditto
:-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
If I had a husband I wonder what interests he would be pursuing?
Don't anyone answer that!!!
s
x
Well, I will answer that! My late husband's interests were marine engineering, Land Rovers, boats and good beer ...and 9 years on I very much doubt if those would have changed :cheers
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.... and one day the youngsters will get old. Their knees will creak and they will have to get up a couple of times in the night.
What goes round, comes round.
Anyone remember the film "Logan's Run" ???
:wooly-jumper
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.... and one day the youngsters will get old. Their knees will creak and they will have to get up a couple of times in the night.
What goes round, comes round.
Anyone remember the film "Logan's Run" ???
:wooly-jumper
:-* :-* :-*
Yes, I remember it, as well as other movies and TV shows with the same, or similar theme.
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There is a phrase that I like very much,
Do not do to others what you would not like them to do to you.
That is respect.
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....and respect has to be earned not commanded.
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....and respect has to be earned not commanded.
I disagree, everyone deserves respect regardless of age until they loose it through their individual actions or attitudes. Advanced age does not necessarily impart experience, wisdom, humility or manners.
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I`m pleased to see how this thread has developed since I posted yesterday.
Genem, as a proportion of the total membership, how many ages are on the system, and do you think the spread on your chart would change very much if it reflected every member?
By the way Genem, do you has statistics on club membership by location please?
The young need to take on the stewardship of these Land Rovers if they are to survive (that is the LR, not the young). It seems inevitable that as the years increase between the cars manufacture and a potential future owner, interest in them will decrease e.g. pre-war cars are, I suggest, generally seen to be unappealing and misunderstood by all but a small band of enthusiasts and that must be because most of us alive today do not have a connection with that ere of car.
The majority of modern day car owners don't even have to lift the bonnet to check the oil & water because its done by computer. diffwhine rightly highlights the mechanical skills & knowledge being lost. We can't make youngsters want a 60 year old Land Rover, so is it nurture or nature that makes them want one ???
I should add that although the young might well think they know everything, they do not have a monopoly on rudeness, that seems to be common across the ages. I believe this clubs membership can hold their heads high in maintaining high standards on that point :first
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I am now in my mid 70's and admit I can get mildly irritated if someone asks a simple question on the forum where I know the answer is available in previous threads or in the vehicle handbook e.g. "what is the ignition timing", why didn’t they just look it up? BUT I then have to remind myself that it is now a different world to when I first had a Land Rover, about 1966. There was no internet & we as a family didn't even have a phone in the house. Virtually all contact with my work colleagues, mates or fellow Land Rover owners in the local club, was face to face, and I am sure at the time I was asking similar sorts of questions, but they weren't in the public domain. Also, modern cars do not work the same way and there is no real culture of “tinkering” with them , when youngsters are growing up, so this basic knowledge will easily be lost if we are not welcoming to new younger members . In the digital world we must respect that asking questions on this forum is the same as I did back in the 1960’s, face to face and freely offer advice and encourage the questions without putdown.
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^^^^ Indeed, I had a conversation with the service manager of a reasonably local garage a couple of years ago, they admitted that they had not worked on a car you could not just plug in to get a diagnosis "since College". This was no spotty youth, the individual was probably in their mid-30s and working at a main dealer for a major brand. When did Landrover start introducing electrickery into engines, 300 Tdi had an ECU from about 1997 - so almost a quarter of a century ago ?
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I`m pleased to see how this thread has developed since I posted yesterday.
Genem, as a proportion of the total membership, how many ages are on the system, and do you think the spread on your chart would change very much if it reflected every member?
By the way Genem, do you has statistics on club membership by location please?
No quite so easy to get as the graph, which is a straight lift from the "Dashboard" on Crossmember. I'll do some work with "Reports" and Excel this evening... I suspect that if we had the age data on the whole Club it would bring the overall age up, the data we have is from recent joiners, some of the "old guard" joined in 1984, so have a 40 year head start...
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I've mentioned this before:
In each issue of B2L we have published a list of new members.
"Someone" could go back and check each membership number against our current list and this would tell how many years they have been a member. You could assume a base joining age of 18 (some would have been older).
The work would take hours.
BUT - what would it achieve ?
What would be any different to the membership data we have already ?
How would it help in running the club and planning for the future.
One thing the membership system can't do is record when you joined. Neither did the old system.
As Gene has posted we have members who joined when the club first started.
Member #1 (our founding father) is still with us, and many with a membership number below 1000.
We could spent hours fine tuning the age graph - but it won't vary that much from what it is now,
Respect is an interesting concept.
Both replies ^^^ in their own sense are correct.
Many of the old "motoring" home mechanic skills are being lost.
Just playing with spanners and getting your head round imperial measurements is hard enough.
Setting the tappets, plug gaps and timing (with a light bulb) are a mystery to newbies to our hobby.
We are here to teach and demonstrate some of these skills (and tricks of the trade).
:RHD
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One thing the membership system can't do is record when you joined. Neither did the old system.
The membership system can’t record when you joined but the Forum records when you first registered. I agree that’s not the same thing but it is at least an indication.
Date Registered: February 09, 2020, 10:41:48 PM
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The work would take hours.
Good points, well made Alan. I`m really not suggesting Genem or anyone spends time trawling through records only to produce something that may be interesting but not very useful.
I know that some databases do have the capability to produce a report at the touch of a few buttons and yes I would find it interesting to see some club demographics but not at the expense of it being an inordinate burden on Genem or anyone else.
Right, I'm off for that nap :-X
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The membership system can’t record when you joined but the Forum records when you first registered. I agree that’s not the same thing but it is at least an indication.
Date Registered: February 09, 2020, 10:41:48 PM
Only downside of that is that the club moved to a new forum on 3rd August 2019. If you take a look at the members list, and click the heading of date registered, it will arrange them in order. But you’ll see that no one joined prior to 3/8/19, and on that day lots and lots of people joined.
I myself joined the previous version of the forum sometime in 2011 but only show as having joined along with many others, in 2019 :cheers
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The membership system can’t record when you joined but the Forum records when you first registered. I agree that’s not the same thing but it is at least an indication.
Date Registered: February 09, 2020, 10:41:48 PM
To be pedantic, the current system records when people paid and how ( but no other financial detail) so for new members since late 2019 we do know when you joined and renewed. What we do not have is any detail ( other than what is in back-numbers of B2L) about when previous members joined. We longer term members only show up in the "history" as part of the mass data transfer (an excel spreadsheet) extracted from the old system in 2019. Current membership numbers have just started using 76xx numbers, I'll tot up how many we have in each 500 number "batch". Anyone fancy trawling the B2L back-numbers on the website to put a date on each batch ? 1-500, 501-1000 etc ? ( Pretend we are all chassis numbers.... :-) )
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Will members of over 40 years membership be
tax subs exempt ???
Hat ...
Coat ... :tiphat
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Plus I read my date wrong because I joined the forum years before 2020. Sometimes I just shouldn’t be allowed near a keyboard.
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I am now in my mid 70's and admit I can get mildly irritated if someone asks a simple question on the forum where I know the answer is available in previous threads or in the vehicle handbook e.g. "what is the ignition timing", why didn’t they just look it up? BUT I then have to remind myself that it is now a different world to when I first had a Land Rover, about 1966. There was no internet & we as a family didn't even have a phone in the house. Virtually all contact with my work colleagues, mates or fellow Land Rover owners in the local club, was face to face, and I am sure at the time I was asking similar sorts of questions, but they weren't in the public domain. Also, modern cars do not work the same way and there is no real culture of “tinkering” with them , when youngsters are growing up, so this basic knowledge will easily be lost if we are not welcoming to new younger members . In the digital world we must respect that asking questions on this forum is the same as I did back in the 1960’s, face to face and freely offer advice and encourage the questions without putdown.
I completely understand, and get, all that you have said here.
I was, and still am at times, one of those annoying people who ask basic questions that frustrate some people. Let me explain though.
I grew up around vehicles and machinery, my parents owned a trenching company - underground cables and such. My brother took to mechanics like a duck takes to water... me - not so much. I wanted to work on the engines and such, but I just seemed to make matters worse. When the mechanics, who worked for my father, saw me coming they'd put away their tools and shoo me off. Even the high school shop teacher knew my reputation. So, when it comes to vehicles all I knew how to do was add gas, add oil and do an oil change, change a tire, and once in a blue moon I might change a belt or sparkplugs. One time, while a teenager, I did replace a starter and a U-joint (it was on a big truck, didn't have to remove the drive haft, part of the yolk was removed and it slid in and out easily).
All that being said - I'm the least likely person to buy a vintage vehicle; especially one that is so unusual in our area the closest mechanic with any experience with them was several hours away.
I bought Grover as a 'proof of life' project. I had loved the old Land Rovers ever since I was a kid and saw them on the original 'Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom', yet I had never seen one in person.
All of my family members and friends thought I was insane for wanting one; and SWMBO insisted that if I got one I had do the work on it. Everyone figured I'd drop the idea - obviously I didn't.
Now here's the point of the story... I purchased the shop manual, as well as the parts book, optional equipment book, the Haynes manual, a LR restoration book, as well as a 250 piece basic mechanics tool set, shop jack and jack stands. Did all of this the day I bought Grover. The books arrived before he did.
Even with all of this available to me - I still lacked two major things; knowledge and experience. I had no idea what things were called, still don't know what to call some things. And since I had no experience with Rovers I had no idea if that leak was normal, or if that sound was normal and etc. I've owned Grover for almost 20 years and I'm still learning, yet now I'm a little wiser and a bit more knowledgeable, but I'm FAR from knowing it all - and still need help.
The biggest majority of all y'all have years of hands-on experience with these, and I suspect some of you are trained mechanics. Try to remember a time before that and look at the shop manuals, parts books and such - it's like a new language AND mathematics textbooks combined! These can be intimidating to someone with no mechanical skills or knowledge.
If you don't know what something is, or you don't know what it's called, or you don't know what it's supposed to do you probably won't be able to look it up in any of the books for lack of knowing where to look. Even if you might have a general idea where to look in the books, or on the internet, you may still need to reach out and ask. The question may seem simple and mundane to those who have vast experience and knowledge, and thus annoying, but consider this... if I'm asking one of those types of questions it's because I'm at the end of my knowledge and understanding. Chances are I'm just as embarrassed to ask the question as the question is annoying to the receiver.
Now I will admit, I too get annoyed at some of the questions that get posted here, and other places. My first thought is - check the shop manual - and then I thought...
There was a gent who had an early SII and he was starting the process of fully restoring it - himself. He was constantly asking very basic questions and finally started emailing me directly with basic questions. I finally asked him "do you have an actual shop manual for your Rover" - he said "no". All he had was the Haynes manual, a parts book and the internet. I stressed the need to get the shop manuals as well as the optional equipment book - just incase - so he did. A couple weeks later a got a huge thank you from him. Now, whenever someone keeps asking basic questions, I ask if they have the shop manuals. I'm surprised at how many don't, they think the Haynes manual and restoration guides and the internet are good enough.
Also - not all Land Rover shop manuals are created equally. The first one I got was the one I was told would cover my Rover; it does, yet it's got more in commonality the late SIIa than the early one. This created frustration as well and I'dhave to ask people about certainparts and clarification. Eventually I was able to get a copy of the manual that covers the SII and the SIIa - there was definitely a difference. Same goes for the parts books.
Not all of us are born mechanics, or pick up the skills easily, there are still parts of the manual I don't understand and have given up trying to understand. And there are still parts I have no clue what they are called.
Just keep this in mind when someone asks those basic, annoying questions.
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I find that 95% + of the time people are met with respect and given a huge amount of support, even when, as Correus suggests, the right long term answer might be "Why not buy a copy of the manual ? ". My personal "limit" arrives when an individual repeatedly asks absolutely basic questions without making much if any attempt to follow the good advice they have previously been given across multiple threads. In terms of access to the books, there is really no excuse, for paid up members they are available, 24/7 in the technical section of the website.
I make no claims for my mechanical skills, I've been described as a "ham-fisted gorilla" by a garage mechanic before now, I know my limits, I hope, some spanner work and basic electrics. I've limited welding experience and no machine-shop training or skills, nor do I have access to drills, presses or the like. I'm genuinely in awe of people who can competently make or refurbish their own parts. I recently had great help from a number of members, including the donation of a complete spare carb. when I was having problems, I've seen members bend over backwards to help others, literally go miles out of their way or "relay" parts across not only the UK but Europe too. Last year an overseas member contacted us about his son, broken down in deepest Wales - local members were contacted and all spoken to reacted instantly to try to assist. I think this is a fantastic Club, in that view I accept that among almost 2500 people there will be some whose attitudes and values are not mine, I'll muddle along with most, perhaps comment where I feel the need. That covers my views on the "general" side of the question, what sort of Club are, what is the atmosphere like. I'll conclude that bit with a couple of images of the library, for those who have not seen it before - Attached below.
Edited to remove references to a deleted post.
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This thread appears to have gone way OT :-\
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Odd, I find that 95% + of the time people are met with respect and given a huge amount of support, even when, as Correus suggests, the right long term answer might be "Why not buy a copy of the manual ? ". My personal "limit" arrives when an individual repeatedly asks absolutely basic questions without making much if any attempt to follow the good advice they have previously been given across multiple threads. In terms of access to the books, there is really no excuse, for paid up members they are available, 24/7 in the technical section of the website.
I make no claims for my mechanical skills, I've been described as a "ham-fisted gorilla" by a garage mechanic before now, I know my limits, I hope, some spanner work and basic electrics. I've limited welding experience and no machine-shop training or skills, nor do I have access to drills, presses or the like. I'm genuinely in awe of people who can competently make or refurbish their own parts. I recently had great help from a number of members, including the donation of a complete spare carb. when I was having problems, I've seen members bend over backwards to help others, literally go miles out of their way or "relay" parts across not only the UK but Europe too. Last year an overseas member contacted us about his son, broken down in deepest Wales - local members were contacted and all spoken to reacted instantly to try to assist. I think this is a fantastic Club, in that view I accept that among almost 2500 people there will be some whose attitudes and values are not mine, I'll muddle along with most, perhaps comment where I feel the need. That covers my views on the "general" side of the question, what sort of Club are, what is the atmosphere like. I'll conclude that bit with a couple of images of the library, for those who have not seen it before - Attached below.
Now, to the specific issue "Woodie 64" has alluded to. I read the thread and did not comment at the time but as it has resurfaced I will. Perhaps I got the wrong end of the stick but my reading of the thing was that the Club ( and guests, not all Forum posters are "Members") were asked if a given vehicle was of particular interest, having a low number etc. There were a number of responses but obviously not quite as fulsome in their praise as was hoped for. This was not a refusal to help, a brusque response to a beginner, it was an honest reflection of peoples views about the relative rarity of a nice vehicle. Somehow this has been translated into grumpiness with the wider Club. I am at a loss to understand quite why, frankly. I don't recall any of the responses as being in anyway unpleasant, other than not being quite the response desired. If I've misunderstood the situation then I'm sorry for that.
Where are those manuals located? Are they here on the form or on the member website? I've looked in the 'Technical Library' in the members section and only see service data and a maintenance chart. I don't see them listed within the 'Worshop Wisdom' section either.
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They are on the Website, available to members when logged in - so not avail;able to non-member guests.
The route is:
Go to the website, link via the box above.
Log in as a member - Alan (Wittsend) will sort you out if not already registered.
Hit the "Technical Library" tab, a drop down menu appears with "Workshop Manuals" at the top.
...and there they all are, ready to browse online or download your own copy.
G.
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They are on the Website, available to members when logged in - so not avail;able to non-member guests.
The route is:
Go to the website, link via the box above.
Log in as a member - Alan (Wittsend) will sort you out if not already registered.
Hit the "Technical Library" tab, a drop down menu appears with "Workshop Manuals" at the top.
...and there they all are, ready to browse online or download your own copy.
G.
Okay... tried that. It immediately took me to the 'Maintenance Chart' with a link to the 'Service Data' area.
While typing this, someone responded saying a drop down box appears when on a PC, but not on a mobile device. Whoever they are, not sure what happened to the post, they are correct. I just figured out, by accident, that if you are on a smartphone at least, that if you click AND hold, the drop down shows up.
I knew those, and other items, were available, just never found them. When I think to look for them I'm usually on a mobile device.
Thanks!
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^^^^ One to flag up to Alan...
G.
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Back on Membership Stats track, first job, the raw % of people who have joined and stayed with the Club. That first 500 will have been with the Club for up to 35 years....
Next job will be to add a date range to those blocks of membership numbers - anyone fancy trawling the B2L back-numbers on the Website ?
As a starter, my number is 4186, dates to Feb 2012. That allows us to say that a quarter of our members have been in the Club more than 10 years...
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Okay... tried that. It immediately took me to the 'Maintenance Chart' with a link to the 'Service Data' area.
While typing this, someone responded saying a drop down box appears when on a PC, but not on a mobile device. Whoever they are, not sure what happened to the post, they are correct. I just figured out, by accident, that if you are on a smartphone at least, that if you click AND hold, the drop down shows up.
I knew those, and other items, were available, just never found them. When I think to look for them I'm usually on a mobile device.
Thanks!
Hands up, that post was from me. I wrote it, and then went and tried it again and realised that on my iPad, the drop down box did appear and figured I must have been mistaken. I then deleted my post to avoid being misleading. Glad you got it sorted though :cheers
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Hands up, that post was from me. I wrote it, and then went and tried it again and realised that on my iPad, the drop down box did appear and figured I must have been mistaken. I then deleted my post to avoid being misleading. Glad you got it sorted though :cheers
:tiphat
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Now for location:
UK Regions to start. Note totals will not add up, some members are listed in more than 1 UK Region
Anglia 156
Borders 124
Bristol 49
Central Shires 88
Cymru/Wales 75
East Mids 88
Essex 78
Kent 104
New Forest & Solent 172
N Wales & Shrops 110
North West 159
N. Ireland 13
Peak 140
Scotland N 63
Scotland S 53
Severn 183
South West 155
Surrey/Sussex 194
Thames Valley 154
West Mids 146
Yorks 163
Overseas Members:
USA 50
Canada 14
Chile 1
Iceland 1
Ireland 8
Portugal 3
Spain 1
France 13
Netherlands 35
Belgium 2
Germany 14
Denmark 3
Norway 7
Sweden 6
Switzerland 12
Austria 3
Slovenia 1
Italy 10
Greece 2
Malta 1
S Africa 2
Botswana 1
Kenya 1
Japan 1
Thailand 3
Australia 30
New Zealand 3
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Genem, wow that was quick :o if I could I`d buy you several drinks :cheers
You deserve to take the rest of the week off :tiphat
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Which group includes north west Hampshire?
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You're (postcode SP) puts you in the
New Forest & Solent area (http://www.series2club.co.uk/public_pages/area-22.php)
Unfortunately, however you slice the cake up some people are going to be near the border and perhaps closer to neighbouring areas.
The postcode system geographically speaking is far from perfect.
Andover is close to 4 other areas; Thames Valley, South West, Bristol, and Severn Valley.
The system decides what club area you belong in.
You should then get a welcome letter from your area rep.
Members can contact any Area Rep and ask to be put on their mailing list.
Quite a few members do this.
If you don't know your area (or just curious as to how we slice up the country) have a look here.
S2C Club Areas (http://www.series2club.co.uk/public_pages/areas.php)
:RHD
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I had the doubt about whether he was the only one from my country in the Club, it seems that he was.
This is a great club, and I am very happy to meet you through this medium, and with great pleasure if I can, contribute in whatever, today when social networks such as Face, and many others are dominating, it is a great thing that this club continue with such force.
Definitely these "old irons" bring people together a lot.
Keep in that way :cheers :first
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^^^^ Thanks Eduardo, its great to have you and your contributions to the discussion ! Maybe try to recruit a few more in South America ??
:cheers
Gene.
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Thanks for the information and map Wittsend.
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Neil,
You are in my area. Welcome along! Pub meet next Thursday btw if you can make it. :cheers
James
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Thanks James. I can't make it but I would be interested in any greenlaning around Salisbury Plain sometime.
My petrol tank after 30 plus years has just started leaking so I've got to get it sorted. The new one arrived today so I can put Slosh sealant in it when the latter arrives tomorrow, then paint it and get Ian at ASV to fit it as I still can't do much myself yet after my hip replacement.
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No worries.
Yes, keep you eye on the Events page on our microsite: www.series2club.co.uk/newforest
That's the master list of what's going on!
Good luck with the fuel tank. :cheers