S2C Forum Archives
Main Section => Workshop Wisdom => Other Land Rovers => Topic started by: Bod on April 01, 2020, 03:18:27 PM
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Afternoon everyone. I am looking for members input as to the best way to improve the brakes and the steering on later series landys? Due to medical reasons I need to make both as light as possible without needing to rob a bank first. Suggestions please?
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Servo can be fitted easily (as with S2), on a S3 the wing already has the cut out. Post 1980 servo was standard.
Properly set up, the steering is very light (same as the S2 can be), apart from at parking speed.
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There's a number of servo brake options that aren't too difficult to fit, servo brakes were standard on some S3s, and standard servo type pedal boxes are out there.. I seem to recall there used to be an aftermarket "ram" type thing that could be bolted on in a similar way as a steering damper, that acted as a kind of power steering...
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There used to be a ram style power steering kit that fitted where the original (optional) steering damper fitted but no idea if anyone still makes it?
I'm in the middle of converting a series three onto coils, Discovery axles and a Discovery steering box with a Defender steering column. It is a lot of work....
I believe you can fit a remote brake servo to save cutting the wings up. Another option is to fit LWB brakes if you have a SWB vehicle. They are a bolt on thing and can improve the brakes noticeably. I ran a V8 series 3 for a while with 11" twin leading shows on the front and SWB front brakes, on the rear.
Craig.
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I drive a SWB with a remote servo and LWB front brakes,they are very good even in modern traffic.
Here's used to sell the hydraulic ramp power steering.
Peter
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Properly set up, the steering is very light (same as the S2 can be), apart from at parking speed.
This is the problem. When we have borrowed series 2s it was the low speed steering that caused the dislocation. It nearly put pay to the Landy idea for good!
Thanks for the suggestions on the brakes. Servo and LWB equipment sounds like the way to go.
Cheers
Bod
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Heystee power steering, still going:
http://www.heystee-automotive.com/parts/pas/pas.htm
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Well found! That was the system I was thinking of but couldn't remember the name.! :cheers
So there's a good fairly simple bolt on solution to both issues readily available ;)
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Also this for power steering-
https://www.steveparkers.com/conversions/power-steering-conversion-for-series-2a-3-land-rovers/
:RHD
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Heystee power steering, still going:
http://www.heystee-automotive.com/parts/pas/pas.htm
Heystee also do a disc brake conversion, although that's definitely moving into bank robbing territory.
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Tyre choice is a factor
"My" swb has 600 x 16s on. Dead light steering and at low speed
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A series 3 pedal mounted servo and master cylinder makes a substantial difference to the driving experience compared to an unassisted standard setup. A remote servo helps a bit, but having run all three varieties over the years, the pedal mounted servo is by far the best option; offering way more feel and controllability than the others.
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It's also the kosher LR factory fitted solution.. :cheers
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It's also the kosher LR factory fitted solution.. :cheers
Indeed.
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Remote servos were also offered ans an option before the pedal mounted servo.
Peter
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I'll second AlexB, the right tyres can make a world of difference.
If you need a mud tyre try Kumho KL71 https://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Kumho/Road-Venture-MT-KL71.htm (https://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Kumho/Road-Venture-MT-KL71.htm)
I've had two sets in 205 / 16 and steering is one finger if you are moving and easy stationary. All to do with the large centre tread blocks Only problem is they are directional, so you can't necessarily back out of the trouble you get yourself into. Steering was that much better than the ATs I had before I nearly cleaned up a gate post the first day I had them because it was so light and positive.
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Hi,
Do your math before changing cylinder sizes.
A 1.25" front wheel piston will require 8O% more fluid (from the master cylinder) to move as far as a 1" piston. Note ... all Series Landies have eight pistons (plus the master) regardless of whether they are SLS or TLS.
Eleven inch FRONT brakes have two advantages over ten inch FRONT brakes.
1. The 11" drum is 10% bigger diameter than 10" drums ... all else being equal, which it isn't. I believe LWB tyres are 15% bigger than SWB tyres, so working on that alone, SWB trucks should have weaker braking than SWB. Of course, if you fit LWB brakes under SWB tyres, you should get a 10% improvement,
BUT ...
... 11" FRONT brakes have twin leading shoes, so twice the self-wrapping effect of single leading shoes. I won't argue that two leading shoes give twice the braking of one leading shoe plus one trailing shoe, but I bet it's close.
I believe there was a pre-war car (make with-held) that had twin leading shoes on all four wheels. Wonderfull brakes (Bendix?) going frontwards, but if your car started to roll backwards, down a hill ... JUMP.
Discuss .... would 10" TLS front brakes give better brakes than 11" SLS rear brakes, if fitted to the front of your S2? I'd discuss why anybody might think the latter is a good idea, but I doubt that anybody is interested, despite the theoretical 10% improvement..
So where can we get 10" TLS back plates to fit a Series?
Can anyone think of a way of making disc brakes self wrapping? But then again, they wouldn't work in reverse. Hmmm! One leading pad, one trailing! Back to the drawing board. (Don't bother, I've cracked it ... only they'd be uncontrollably powerful. Mount the pads on rollers running on wedges).
602
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It's also the kosher LR factory fitted solution.. :cheers
The Clayton remote servo, fitted over the passenger footwell, was also LR fitment - perhaps as an option, but still factory fitted to late S2A as far as I know :cheers
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Robin is right but purely from a practical point of view putting a remote servo on top of the drivers for box requires much shorter runs of pipe. In either case it is a wing off job for any work. Providing you have lubricated the bolts and fittings wing removal is not a major job. My wiring is such that I can easily detach it for wing removal.
Peter
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My wiring is such that I can easily detach it for wing removal.
Hi Peter,
7-pin sockets under the bonnet?
602
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No, just colour coded bullet connectors, there aren't many.
I did once have an 80 that I fitted mulipin connectors to but it is a bit of overkill
Peter
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Hi,
I've just scanned thru the Steve Parker "spiel" (no offence intended), with special interest in how the replacement steering box is located ... weld brackets to the chassis.
Should I decide that I will want PAS, or even might, would it be sensible to ask Richards to weld the appropriate brackets in place BEFORE they galvanise it, just in case.
Can anyone here comment on the "weight" of the steering on a Series, when the engine (but not gearbox) has been removed? Even better, if they can then test the static "feel" with a big friend standing on the bumper. ??? My engine will be substantially lighter than a 2286cc, but I have plans.
602
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I've been trying to buy a Heystee power steering kit for over a year. They have been awaiting parts all this time. Even though they are shown as in stock on the website. We'll that's the story I'm being told.
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I would go for the Steve Parker solution (https://www.steveparkers.com/conversions/power-steering-conversion-for-series-2a-3-land-rovers/) myself, partially because I am in favour of the steering geometry modification, although that element could be omitted if required, and the standard geometry retained if (for the OP in this thread) the extreme lightness was required.
Regards.
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Richards
have the option when ordering your chassis to add power steering either P38 brackets £60 inc vat or what they call 4 bolt PAS low mounts £210 inc vat
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A quick flag up on a safety issue with remote servos. I had a very scary incident some years ago with a customer's 88 fitted with a remote servo. On road test, I lost all brakes at a somewhat inopportune moment (is there an opportune moment?). It turned out that the remote servo had rusted through and literally blew itself apart. If they are hidden under the wing and don't get any attention, they can rust away. Since then, I always check just in case and have found quite a few very close to failure. All on vehicles which are now MOT exempt...
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Fortunately mine is on top of the toe box out of the weather and was treated to many coats of paint before fitting.
Peter
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..... and one would hope that people install the mud shield under the wing.
The remote servo as Peter describes is easily accessible for visual inspection and wipes with an oily rag.
Space is tight, and installing is best done with the wing off.
The paint finish on the genuine Lockheed model is quite durable.
:brakes
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Hi,
My first thoughts would be towards fitting 109" brakes. That alone should give you 10% improvement, before factoring in the effect of TLS on the front wheels.
Is there anybody here able to REVERSE the front wheels of a 109" onto the brake rollers, and then do it frontwards? I'd be interested in the difference between the effects of total TLS and total TTS. Anybody? 88", of course have SLS all round.
Rear brakes are always (?) SLS, so that you can stop when reversing. Sorry, I forgot pre-war Standards, which had TLS (Bendix?) brakes all round. Very powerful ... but don't let you car run away, backwards, down a hill. :agh
602
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Hi,
How many of our readers actually know what happens to vacuum servo brakes if you have no vacuum?
I suggest everybody should try this little test.
1. Park on a gentle slope with no traffic. Apply hand brake. Switch off engine.
2. Pump brake pedal to get rid of any residual vacuum.
3. Switch ON ignition, but do not start engine. This will release the steering lock, if fitted.
4. Engage 3rd gear.
5. When safe to do so, depress clutch pedal, release hand brake, let car roll down hill.
6. As soon as you are doing about a walking speed, hit the brake pedal as hard as you can.
7. Screaming is optional when the car doesn't stop. :agh
8. Lift clutch pedal, which will get the engine turning, and sucking a vacuum, and your brakes will work again.
9. Er ... I wouldn't recommend doing this if your car is automatic.
10. Alternatively, ask Barbara!.
I had gone up the mountain, to feed my horses and refill their domestic bath tub with water. That involved a plastic drum of water (40 gallons? 50 gallons?) in the back of my Morris Midwife van. I used a 12 volt slim line pump, dropped through the filler hole in the barrel, to get the water over the drystone wall.
Job done, I found I had a flat tyre. :thud Walk down through the woods, back to my house, throw a trolley jack into the boot of our Triumph 2500TC, get Barbara to drive me back up to the field.
Wheel changed, I set off home, followed by Barbara in the Triumph. I met a milk lorry coming up the hill, so I pulled into a small layby, only room for one car.
"I wonder where Barbara will park?" I thought to myself ... "Now what's the Silly Moo done?" , as she shot past me, clipping my front wing, mounting the grass verge, and disappearing over the edge of a (guestimated) 100ft deep quarry.
The lorry driver and I ran to look, found the Triumph, on it's side, wedged between a tree and the cliff face, about 15 to 20 feet down. We scrambled down. I opened the driver's door, vertically, found Barbara sitting in the passenger foot-well, with her feet up on the driver's seat.
I said to the truck driver "Lets grab a foot each, and drag her up and out!"
True to form, Barbara took charge ... "Oh no you won't, I'm coming out head first!"
She admitted that she had not started the engine, just dropped the hand-brake, and followed me down the hill. When she needed brakes there weren't any.
The following day, I bought a length of chain, and flagged down a passing milk lorry to drag the car out. The passenger side of the roof was touching the tops of the door skins, but I drove it home.
Barbara was a nervous passenger for a few weeks ... kept asking if we had vacuum. It didn't seem politic to mention that we also had "death by accident" life insurance equal to about five years salary. :tiphat
602
If you really want to upset Barbara, ask her about time we borrowed a Cortina estate from a DVLA Senior Executive, to collect my first equine. Barbara drove, with "Horrible Hector" (an "entire" Shetland stallion ... £20) screaming in her ear, and stamping his feet on the bare metal floor. Shetlands are not "sweet".
In horsey parlance, "entire" means he is still "all there".
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Really ???
All the servo does is reduce the foot pressure required to operate the brakes.
Without vacuum the brakes still work, just require more foot pressure. That's how they are designed, as a fail-safe.
Now if you're talking about hydropneumatic brakes, such as the old Citroen Xantia, they didn't work at all without hydraulic pressure - the foot brake was effectively a valve which allowed stored hydraulic pressure to operate the brakes - no pressure, no brakes no matter how hard you stamp on the pedal :agh
It's one of the reasons why the handbrake on the Xantia operated the front brakes, not rear.
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Robin is quite correct ...
:-\
Important safety message here:
Your brakes will still work and stop you in all situations if the vacuum fails on the servo.
:brakes
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Now if you're talking about hydropneumatic brakes, such as the old Citroen Xantia, they didn't work at all without hydraulic pressure - the foot brake was effectively a valve which allowed stored hydraulic pressure to operate the brakes
Hi Robin,
How true! I had a Citroen BX with the hydraulic suspension and brakes. Start the engine and the car would go up, although you could control how high. It suffered from dud "balls", and leaky rubber pipes. Luckily, the steering was not power assisted. I replaced the balls (£££) but was scared off by the complicated pipes enema hoses that connected everything together. I think it drank about a litre of the special fluid per week ... at something like £15 a litre. I was very glad when somebody crashed into the back of me.
Yes, no brake pedal, just a rubber button thingy on the floor. I can't remember which failed first ... hydraulic suspension, which would drop you down to about 4" ground clearance (avoid speed bumps), or the brakes, which just stopped working. Character building. :agh
Occasionally I ponder on the little V-belt driven pump, that sat on top of the engine. Can my memory be correct ... a pressure in four figures? Hmmm! Landy FFR engine with double crank pulley, and mount the pump where the 24V alternator sits.
But what would you do with all that pressure?
Just me, you understand, but I don't like the TRE in the middle of the track-rod.
Should I ever decide to have another S2 (I'm still yearning) and go for PAS, I would look into fitting a LHD drag-arm to the left hand swivel (so there are two drag-arms) and connect the hydraulic ram to the outer "eye" on the second drag-arm.
I have considered (but not in any depth) using the above idea, but with a power assisted rack and pinion bolted to the front bumper. Hey, that would work, in theory, using the original TRE "eyes". It might be a good idea to weld the bumper to the dumb-irons, and it would need a steering column with a couple of U/Js to avoid impalement.
To avoid bump-steer, it might be better to connect the rack to just one drag-arm, and retain the original track-rod.
Probably time to get my coat.
602
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Really ???
All the servo does is reduce the foot pressure required to operate the brakes.
Without vacuum the brakes still work, just require more foot pressure. That's how they are designed, as a fail-safe.
True enough, and in the case of a Land Rover, if the M/C diameter is the same as for the unservoed version, the brakes with no servo action should work as for a normal non-servo setup. I suspect though, that for cars with a servo as standard and disc brakes, advantage has been taken of the servo to increase the M/C bore to reduce pedal travel resulting in the apparent loss of brakes if the servo fails resulting from the very large step change increase in pedal pressure required.
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There is a little more to it than just reducing pedal pressure although, granted, with remote servos that’s all you get.
The direct servo has a longer lever, and a different ratio between pedal, cylinder and fulcrum. This has the effect of also lowering pedal pressure. The return springs are also lighter, which reduces effort too. You also have the benefit of a direct servo providing its assistance from the instant you apply the brakes, which means they’re more linear in operation than remote ones which require a certain amount of line pressure to start to assist. Finally, in the case of fitment of a dual circuit master cylinder, you have an element of front/rear proportioning which can aid stability (as well as the security of a fail safe).
The pedal mounted servo and dual circuit master cylinder setup on my 109” provides significantly more feel, with much less pedal effort, than the standard single circuit system it replaced.
There is a line to be walked between originality, cost, performance, mechanical ability and vehicle usage. Only you can decide how to navigate it.
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Just remember with these home brew brake modifications to inform your insurance company and be prepared for an engineer's inspection.
Fitting an "off-the-self" power steering kit should be OK as someone has done the engineering calculations and tests - but your insurers need to know.
You can't give them any chance to wriggle out of settling your claim.
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Your brakes will still work and stop you in all situations if the vacuum fails on the servo.
Hi Alan,
Have you tried.
Moskvich brakes certainly did NOT work if you didn't have vacuum. And TOO powerful if the engine was running. You could recognise a new Moskvich owner by the way they approached traffic lights in a series of short skids, (I'm not joking).
Barbara's incident with the cliff happened when she just dropped the hand-brake on our Triumph 2500TC, and let it roll. When she met the lorry coming up the hill, she hit the brake pedal. Nothing happened ... no brakes. The folowing day I flagged down a passing milk lorry, got him to pull me off the tree, and up the cliff. She started easily, and I drove it home, despite the passenger side of the roof touching the passenger door skin.
I think the E-type was introduced in 1971. A dentist a few miles South of Croydon bought one. Late one night, his three sons (eldest 12) were killed when they took it for a drive (or whatever ???) I'm assuming they let it roll down the long hill, with a dead engine ... and found they had no brakes. Shoving it into gear and lfting the clutch would have turned the engine ... even if it didn't start ... and given them brakes.
We bought a Daimler 2.5 V8 (same shape as Inspector Morse's Jaguar). The brakes only worked, sort of if the engine was running, despite it having a vacuum reservoir. I found a hole in the reservoir, so I by-passed it by joining the in and out pipes together., after which the brakes were akin to a "mighty hand" grabbing the back bumper ... but they still didn't work if the engine wasn't running. And the hand brake never worked, par for the course on that model, even when new, (and acknowledged by MOT testers).
I will agree that if you have a reservoir, you will have enough vacuum for four or five good stops. And I'll admit that I haven't done my "test" on a modern car. Remind me tomorrow.
602.
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Even the smallest modern car seems to require assistance for brakes and steering. We have a Berlingo based camper (and a Berlingo car). Recently the power steering pump decided to malfunction on a journey, gosh the steering was heavy, think a loaded land rover with flat tyres and the brakes are non existent however much you stand on the pedal if the engine is not running but the vac pump is tiny. The brakes on tha car which is a later model are the same and trying to turn the steering without engine power is a no no.
On a SWB land rover I find 11" TLS brakes on the front, standard 10" brakes on the rear and a 1.9. to 1 remote servo an excellent combination and yes I did tell the insurance company whose reply was that is a standard upgrade, no problem.
Peter
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You can't give them any chance to wriggle out of settling your claim.
Hi Alan,
Insurers find it very difficult to wriggle out of Third Party claims.
Provided that you are not doing anything that is prohibited (detailed on your CERTIFICATE of Insurance, you are covered. Those exemptions include ...
1. Driving without a licence (or never having held a licence) to drive that particular CLASS of vehicle.
1.1. I would argue that towing a trailer that takes your train weight over your licence entitlement will mean you are driving without a licence, and therefore not insured. But hey, what do I know? I think it will give them the opportunity to "void" any "own damage" cover.
1.2. I would also "look sideways" at a Cat.B. licence holder driving a 12-seat Land Rover Safari. Your Insurers may get a little "po-faced" if you have more than eight seats. Will the passenger liability factor affect your insurance premium? Dunno! I have a vague memory, from many years ago, about discussing this with my insurers. I think I agreed to remove the inward-facing rear seats from my Safari, which left me with 5/6 front facing seats. Not a problem ... my two GSDs didn't use those seats, anyway.
2. I think insurers do not like modifications that "enhance performance". Go look at your Certificate of Insurance (both sides) ... which is the only document that counts ... the policy falls into the "bumf" category. But read it (once) so you know what's covered, NCD, etc.
602
Overtaken by Peter ...
Barbara's 2.5TC engined Stag blew it's home brewed high pressure hose on the power steering ... front wheel hit a pot-hole when at full lock, albeit at a walking speed. Impressive steam/smoke when the PAS fluid hit the exhaust.
I had to drive it home, the steering was too heavy for her.
My Citroen BX was scary to drive, due to a hydraulic leak (I think at £15 per litre). I didn't even have a pedal to pump and swear at, and ground clearance measured in "thickness of fag packets". Characterb building! Luckily, I didn't have the PAS model.
The BX had a lovely little hydraulic pump, almost fit in your pocket. I reckon it would not be difficult to mount onto a Series engine, using a double-V crank pulley. But what could you do with all that lovely high pressure ( I think it was over 1000lb/in2). The suspension spheres only had a short travel ... but how short?
A car suspended on "enema" hoses. The mind boggles.
602
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Hi,l
Completely off the wall, not researched, and not thought through.
What happens if you swap the top and bottom arms on the relay? I think they are different lengths.
I suspect that radial tyres will make the steering heavier. And so will bigger tyres?
Altering the castor angle by fitting spring wedges will alter make the steering heavier (or lighter if you are not careful)
Tired rear springs will alter the castor angle. Longer rear swinging shackles will lighten the steering, but maybe not enough to be noticable.
Are you sure your steering is heavy not stiff
Tyre pressures? What IS the correct TPI? I've had tyre bays insisting they should be 4O+TPI I run at 25TPI on both 205 and 235.
Do a TESCO car park self-centering test, both locks.
602
602