S2C Forum Archives
Main Section => Workshop Wisdom => 602's Musings => Topic started by: w3526602 on August 07, 2020, 10:45:44 PM
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Hi,
Check out ...;
b]https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/670431/vehicles-of-historical-interest-substantial-change-guidance.pdf[/b]
Specifically
.... Changes that are made to preserve a vehicle , which in all cases must be done when original type parts are no longer reasonably available.
and
... in respect of axles and running gear changes made to improve efficiency, safety, or environmental performance
What is meant by "no longer reasonably available"? Not available NEW? Not available as PATTERN PART? Not available SECOND HAND? Beyond RECONDITIONING (already re-bored to maximum?) I'm guessing that Rovers would go po-faced if you demanded a NEW S2 engine.
What is meant by "improve efficiency, safety, or environmental performance"? I'm guessing that a brand new Mercedes engine, and independent suspension all round would comply with those requirements. :whistle Then there is a roll-over-cage-cum-seat-belt-hoop welded to a new chassis.
Going electric would (I think) obviate any MOT exemption. ???
I'm not suggesting that I want to do any of those things ... just trying to make sense of the regulations. ??? These exceptions were presumably included in the original draft, (pre-Day 1), with "something" in mind.
Little wheels should improve stability and braking.
602
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Why not read our Guidance John ?
We published it two years ago and its been repeated multiple times since.
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Here is the full text.
MOT Exemption post 20 May 2018.
Introduction
The Series 2 Club has been requested to provide advice to members on the declaration of exemption from the requirement for annual MOT testing for “Vehicles of Historic Interest”. The decision to declare your vehicle exempt from the MOT is yours alone, the Club takes no responsibility if our interpretation of the DfT guidelines is incorrect. The following therefore provides the Club’s view on interpretation of the DfT guidance as it specifically relates to our vehicles, provided as a group of volunteers, in good faith and based on our knowledge of the Marque. We note in particular its history of gradual development through evolutionary change and the legendary adaptability of the vehicle which lead to its early and continued in-service modification as owners “improved” their vehicle. We therefore recognise that a major element in the “historical interest” of our vehicles may well be the modifications made to them in 60 years of use.
The first point to note is that despite many of our vehicles becoming eligible for MOT exemption, it remains the driver’s responsibility to ensure their vehicle is roadworthy at all times. Being exempt from testing does not remove this requirement. Regular maintenance and checks are recommended for all road-going vehicles.
The MOT system is a cheap, simple and proven method of obtaining an impartial condition check which may spot issues that even well qualified owners may have missed. The Club would advise that submitting a vehicle for an MOT Test will provide peace of mind to all owners seeking confirmation of their vehicle’s mechanical condition or uncertain of their vehicle’s eligibility due to modifications.
Owners should also recognise that the modifications allowable under this scheme, involving in-service replacement of engines, axles and suspension could, under certain circumstances, result in a vehicle which would fail the strict “8 points” DVLA requirement to retain or reclaim its original identity.
Note also that some vehicles previously MOT exempt on age grounds (Pre 1960) WILL require MOT Testing if they have been “substantially modified” in the last 30 years.
Forward Control Vehicles: Sadly FC vehicles have a gross weight of 3700Kg which takes them 200Kg over the limit and into the “Goods Vehicle” category, needing an MOT.
The Club Advice: If in you are in any Doubt get your vehicle tested.
The following text in Italics is extracted from the Department for Transport Guidance, with our explanatory advice added below in Green text. Text irrelevant to our Landrovers has been deleted.
The criteria for substantial change
A vehicle will be considered substantially changed if the technical characteristics of the main components have changed in the previous 30 years, unless the changes fall into specific categories. These main components for vehicles......are:
Chassis (replacements of the same pattern as the original are not considered a substantial change).
The Club considers that this allows ‘like for like’ replacement such as reproduction galvanised chassis, repairs and replacement of outriggers, cross-members, movement of engine mounts etc.
Changes to the chassis geometry such as shortening, lengthening, removal of chassis elements or substitution of coil-sprung chassis would NOT meet the criteria and would require MOT Testing. The only exception to this would be where positive proof that the alteration was made over 30 years ago can be provided.
Members will recognise that there is a particular issue with later vehicles with little or no Series 2 content being offered for sale as “Series 2” vehicles. For the avoidance of doubt, the identity of a vehicle remains with its Chassis. No Series 2, 2a or 2b vehicles were produced with chassis fitted with Coil Sprung suspension and very few were altered within the “over 30 years ago” criteria allowed by this scheme. It is highly unlikely that a coil-sprung vehicle can claim to be a “Series 2” or claim MOT exemption.
Axles and running gear – alteration of the type and or method of suspension or steering constitutes a substantial change;
The Club would advise that this excludes the use of coil-sprung chassis. Power steering and disc brake systems would be acceptable under the safety/efficiency criteria listed below. Conversion between LHD & RHD where both relay positions are available is acceptable.
Engine – alternative cubic capacities of the same basic engine and alternative original equipment engines are not considered a substantial change. If the number of cylinders in an engine is different from the original, it is likely to be, but not necessarily, the case that the current engine is not alternative original equipment.
The Club would consider that any LR engine used during the production run of LR leaf-sprung vehicles or developed from them, such as the Tdi range, would be acceptable together with engines commonly fitted when they were in general use. Engines such as the Perkins Diesel and Ford V6 were also popular modifications during the period when the vehicles were in regular use and would meet the “in general use or 10 years” criteria below.
The following are considered acceptable (not substantial) changes if they fall into these specific categories:
Changes that are made to preserve a vehicle, which in all cases must be when original type parts are no longer reasonably available;
The Club considers “reasonably available” to mean that parts are available commercially and “off the shelf” to an Original Equipment specification. Owners should not feel pressurised to accept sub-standard “pattern” parts or pay exorbitant bespoke production costs if other parts can be utilised.
Changes of a type, that can be demonstrated to have been made when vehicles of the type were in production or in general use (within ten years of the end of production);
The Club will consider “The Type” to have been in production until the end of S3 (leaf-sprung) production. Reasoning based on the S2/S3 junction being essentially cosmetic with most mechanical parts interchangeable.
In respect of axles and running gear changes made to improve efficiency, safety or environmental performance;
As above, this would include power-steering, dual line/servo, brake drum size increases and disk brake conversions. The Club would advise that any alteration to the original braking or steering system is checked for safety by a suitable competent individual, an MOT Test would meet this requirement.
In respect of vehicles that have been commercial vehicles, changes which can be demonstrated were being made when they were used commercially.
The club would advise that this should involve evidence such as period photography or other written evidence.
This guidance is only intended to determine the testing position of a substantially changed vehicle, not its registration.
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Hi Genem,
Thankyou for that. Yes, I have read it, several times, but not in the context of the question that I just asked.
I have accepted that changing the engine for something different, will NOW preclude MOT exemption. That in itself is not a major problem, but involves minor niggles. For instance, I would be reluctant to let a tyre touch public tarmac, without the vehicle being street legal. In a previous life, I was manager of DVL Enforcement Teams (both Medical and VED, and have some idea of how they think thought (I "retired" in 1985). Medical Enforcement Branch endeavored to help, Vehicle Enforcement Branch ... er ... less so. My knowledge is well out of date.
Wittsend recently advised me that changing the engine would cancel any MOT exemption. I checked (within my limited abilities) and found he appears to be right. But the engine is only worth one point towards the eight points needed to avoid "radicalisation". ??? I get the impression that the rules have changed. Recently? Retrospectively? Perhaps one set of rules is being used for two different situiations ... MOT Exemption, and IVA Avoidance? Am I understanding that correctly?
I was querying my confusion over apparently contradictory rules :stars (Lets stay with "engines", as they are the easiest to understand despite being worth only one point). I can retain a somewhat thirsty, and polluting S2 engine, but continue to be MOT exempt, but if I fit a Honda CRV VTEC engine (I wish) I will require a full MOT, despite it (apparently/arguably) not losing me any Brownie points towards an IVA avoidance target (because it is a less polluting and more fuel efficient engine).
Independent suspension all round should (in theory) be safer, and therefore IVA acceptable, without incuring MOT penalties ... but I won't go into that. :whistle Power steering?
602
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WOW! No wonder there is so much confusion on the subject. Personally I think an annual inspection makes very good sense.
It will interesting to see how I get on the in future when I go for Historic status with mine. Last taxed in 1988 as a diesel but the left the factory as a petrol. I do like the sound of dual brakes/servo for peace of mind. Already have 6 cylinder brakes fitted.
I will have to wait and see if I can reuse the current Series 3 2.3 diesel or whether I need another engine. The rules seem clear enough that I could revert to petrol by fitting a Rover V8 with carbs. As a "petrol head" I would love to do that, but I will be keeping it diesel for now. KISS!
Also currently fitted with an S3 gearbox, but I do have a spare S2 box as well (not the original).
I still have a way to go yet before all of this becomes relevant.
As a newcomer, it would be useful to hear from other club members who have done these things and their experiences with officialdom. I know this is the sort of thing we usually get at club/pub meets.
Withdrawal symptoms, me thinks!
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Hi Safari John,
When I bought my last project (The Aunt), DVLA phoned me, to say that I was "just in time", as being removed from their main file was imminent. I don't know how relevent that was, as I did have the original VE60 (cardboard logbook) complete with DVLC numbers and editing.
I also had an early V5 Registration Document, which meant I could do a "Change of Keeper" for the price of a stamp, and start the ball rolling again, with a later version of the V5..
When she was up and running, I arranged insurance, and trundled down to the local Post Office. The bloke behind the counter checked V5 and cover note, didn't ask for an MOT, and gave me a tax disc, but kept the V5. A new V5 duly arrived, with the Tax Class amended to "Historic Exempt". Easy Peasy.
Hey! That's the answer to my problem ... arrange very low mileage Classic insurance, for lo-bucks, already VED and MOT exempt, so I can shunt the truck around our side street and into where I want it, then suspend the policy, until needed. I believe surrendering the policy immediately , will produce only a 50% refund ... details are on the policy document, I assume all insurers sing from the same hymn sheet?
But that was then (earlier this morning).
I am not aware I have ever insulted anybody on this forum ... or any forum. I am still miffed at my public chastisement, when I asked for help.
602
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Insuring your "project" is not a bad idea whether it's on the road or not. It will be covered for theft and or destruction and any damage it may cause to a 3rd party.
:RHD
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Insuring your "project" is not a bad idea whether it's on the road or not.
Hi Allan,
Most (all?) insurers offer "laid up" cover, for not a lot of bucks. Very inexpensive, but I doubt that it would cover setting tyre on tarmac (nor even a grassy public right of way ... which might include on land that YOU own).
602
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^^^^
I dunno, the offer for one of mine, currently SORN, was about 2/3s the price of actually insuring it fully Comp. I declined.
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Hey John,
thanks for responding to me. I hope the public flogging wasn't too severe, although as you pointed out, what did you do? As the Centurion said to Brian "DON'T DO IT AGAIN"....
I suppose you could always unlock a FWH next time he is off-roading and have a giggle. Not that I have EVER done anything like that, but I have heard other people telling me how its done.... :-X
Mine came with a V5C and I SORNed it straight away. Funny thing is when I check online it doesn't say SORN, but I was clever. I wrote the SORN number down at the time. I should watch myself. Nothing good ever came out of being smug.... :-X
I wonder how much I should value my project (a.k.a. pile of bits) for insurance purposes? It would be useful to get a consensus from the club, rather than my mates down the pub (remember those times?). Are there some preferred companies within the club for this?
A penny for your thoughts, sir.
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A penny for your thoughts, sir.
Hi SJ,
Do you have another car, which IS insured? If so read the POLICY DOCUMENT, which probably runs to two or three pages, and is effectively, your contract.
Somewhere amongst all the boring stuff, you will find details of the Insurer's NO CLAIMS discounts ... which is worth knowing about ... I have met insurers who do not, (or only slightly) cancel your NCD for the first claim. But to get back on topic ... there will also be a reference to "laid-up vehicle" cover .. which might not be the same as a "laid-up ]policy" (which is for when you are temporarilly without wheels. It is more beneficial. in the long run, to "suspend" a policy than to "surrender" it, and get a small fraction of your premium refunded. It's been a very long time since I read a Policy.
I suggest you find an insurer/broker, who can offer you a decent deal, THEN raise the matter of Laid Up Cover. He might be disappointed, but at least you are in his clutches (he gets First Dibs when your project is ready for the road).
I suspect that "Laid Up Cover" will include some Third Part, Fire and Theft cover ... for when your project spontaneously combusts, and burns your neighbour's house down, or falls off it's jack, and crushes the same neighbour's pedigree Siamese "brood queen".
602
PS ... and stand to Attention when you address me a "Sir"!) :-X
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Hi Genem.
PM sent.
602
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Yes SIR! :-X
Thanks for that, John. It serves as a reminder that insurance cover for a project can be overlooked.
Me thinks I will be speaking with my insurance broker this week.
Muchas gracias Senor
J
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Hi yet again
The rules have been changed (i don't know when. Recently???) Take a shufti at ...
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/historic-classic-vehicles-mot-exemption-criteria/historic-classic-vehicles-mot-exemption-criteria
I understand this is the latest ruling, and cancels all previous rulings
To MY eyes, it does NOT suggest that a Ford Transit engine may be fitted if you wish to retain MOT exemption. There is no mention of an SVA, however, where a different engine costs you only ONE POINT. It does not clarify if that particular one point would take all the other points with it.
I will now wind my neck in.
602
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^^^^ Thanks John, no, no change to what was published in 2018 as far as I can tell, the document they link to is the one we were presented with back then. All they have done is change the presentation of the webpage.
Cheers,
Gene
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but I was clever. I wrote the SORN number down at the time.
Hi,
That reminds me of a "ploy" that I have not used for many years.
I would write the important information (that i didn't want to lose, such as an MOT number) in small but clear text, somewhere on the original document , where it wouldn't cause a clerical obstruction (such as in one of the vertical margins).
The idea being that DVLC would microfilm the document, and keep a permanent record.
If push came to shove, I could demand a microfilm copy of ther document.
Did the idea work? Dunno ... I never had cause to find out. Probably been superceded by official technology, anyway.
602
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Hi,
Doh! Brain on gimbals ... probably my age ... I apologise.
I was confusing "avoiding an IVA", and retaining "MOT exemption". I have already written off MOT Exemption, as I regard it as little more than an annual nuisance, costing about half a weeks pension. It's the IVA exemption that has a one point penalty for changing the engine (unless they've changed that too?)
However, MOT exemption is worth having, so I looked at the rules again ... CHANGES OF A TYPE WHICH CAN BE DEMONSTRATED TO HAVE BEEN MADE WHEN VEHICLES OF THIS TYPE WERE IN PRODUCTION, OR WITHIN 10 YEARS OF THE END OF PRODUCTION I asked Barbara to dig her DVLA POLICY VEHICLES hat out of the bottom of her wardrobe, and comment on the above. She took a quick shufti, said she wanted to see the whole document. I'll print her off a copy tomorrow later this morning. She says her knowledge is thirty years out date, anyway.
The Club appear to regard the above as meaning any leaf sprung Land Rover, from the introduction of the 80" until
the end of production of the S3. PLUS 10 years. ??? When did LR cease making the Series?
I have a photograph of "Babs", sitting on a trailer, on Pendine beach, behind a Rover V8 powered LR 80" Series 1. Standing along-side is my disinterested son, sucking his thumb. I assume this visit is well documented. (Babs' first return to Pendine). Probably at about the same time, the Series One club mentioned an S1 campaigning, off-road, and fitted with an MGB engine. That engine was also fitted into the Marina 1.8TC. I'm guessing there are/were plenty of OZ Landies converted to Holden engines. Vauxhall? I understand there is a S1 in the Dunsfold Collection fitted with a Rover 2000 P6 engine. I assume this is the same car that was road-tested in an obscure non-glossy magazine, in the 1980s ("Off Road and 4-wheel Driver" ???) It performed OK on 600 tyres, but ran out of grunt at 50mph on 750s. Over-geared? That shouldn't be a problem on my Dinky-wheeled Urban Special .. buying a P6 engine might be.
Witsend (I think it was) mentioned Ford Transit engines. I've owned two Transits ... a V4 SWB van, and my LWB, V6 engined (diesel fronted) "hay wain". It "burned rubber" too easily when unladen. I did wonder about fitting a V4 into a Series .. but only for a few seconds.
Did Ford make a straight-4 2000cc PETROL Transit, and if so, were any fitted into Land Rovers?
I understand that S1s competed off-road using the softer springs from Ford Transits, which may be worth investigating. SIs used at least two width spring leaves, but I'm ignorant about the details.
Nearly time to go back to bed.
602
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Hi John,
warped minds think alike!
That is how I record information too. SORN is in pencil on front page of the V5. To hand if I ever need it.
Nowadays everything is scanned and stored as a digital document, so storage and retrieval is a lot quicker. Well that is the theory.
I have never had an issue with DVLA before, either. Then again, there have massive changes in the last decade. I can't see things improving, so anything we can do to help ourselves can't be bad. ;)
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However, MOT exemption is worth having, so I looked at the rules again ... CHANGES OF A TYPE WHICH CAN BE DEMONSTRATED TO HAVE BEEN MADE WHEN VEHICLES OF THIS TYPE WERE IN PRODUCTION, OR WITHIN 10 YEARS OF THE END OF PRODUCTION I asked Barbara to dig her DVLA POLICY VEHICLES hat out of the bottom of her wardrobe, and comment on the above. She took a quick shufti, said she wanted to see the whole document. I'll print her off a copy tomorrow later this morning. She says her knowledge is thirty years out date, anyway.
The Club appear to regard the above as meaning any leaf sprung Land Rover, from the introduction of the 80" until
the end of production of the S3. PLUS 10 years. ??? When did LR cease making the Series?
602
Correct John, that is how we'd interpret it. Its a phrase that seems to have been very deliberately left open to wide interpretation on a number of fronts. "Changes of a type" rather than specific changes at a specific point in time being a prime example. You don't need to show that the actual change happened within that date range, just that people were doing that sort of change.... and so on. The chancer, John, might even want to challenge the "10 years" in the case of Landrovers because many were in regular working use long after other vehicles of the same age had been scrapped.
"Vehicles of this Type" - Yes, we are including S3 in that because the change between S2, S2A and S3 are minor, cosmetic, marketing, gradual evolution etc. Same goes for engines, the Tdi 4 cylinder diesels being evolution of the original, sharing a number of components etc. The attempt is to stay within the spirit of the regulation, we think that we have a pragmatic and workable solution. Two years on and we have had no issues with DVLA on the subject.
Edited to say, Remember that DVLA were trying to write "guidance" aimed at the whole classic/vintage vehicle world, hundreds of Marques, thousands of models. By default the guidance needs to be general. We here are lucky they did not adopt the alternative German TuV suggestion for "historic" status which was to be absolutely strict, no modifications, all components made by the original manufacturer to the original specification... Good luck finding new tyres under that regime, let alone other consumables.
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Hi,
At one stage of my life, I was presenting my "projects" for MOT-ing about once a month They were mainly S2s. My favourite test station was very popular, probably because of their "NO PASS. NO FEE" policy.
I arrived a bit late, one day (about 08.30hrs). I was eigth in the queue. :thud The Tester wandered out of the workshop, scanned the candidates, and wandered back indoors again.
His "hench-man/side-kick" told me later, that the Test-Master had forecast that, out of the visible candidates, my Land Rover would be the only one to pass. And so it came to pass! Yes, he failed me from time to time, but it was rarely that the"perp-mobile" didn't pass at breakfast time the following morning. Only a moth-eaten rear axle strenthening "thingy" between the spring and back-plate took me longer than 24 hours.
602
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Hi Gene,
I'm still waiting, with everything "bated", hopefully for the one that has "been agreed", but date of delivery is not yet "Writ in stone" (for reasons that are "Entirely beyond our control, unforeseeable, and too numerous to mention here".)
I think most of our readers are aware that I was born shortly before the outbreak of WW2 ( I can remember shooting down V1s (Pilotless flying bombs, aka "Doodlebugs") with my wooden Tommy gun. I can even remember Dad calling me out of the Anderson shelter, to watch a Doodlebug fall out the sky, barrage balloons were to hold the steel cable up, for the enemy planes to fly into. Searchlights! The "crump" of Ack-Ack guns! Blokes in brown suits wandering the streets ... sometimes they'd let me hold their guns. Happy daze.
(Get me a bucket of sand ... and I'll sing you the "Desert Song", too! )
To recount ... the plan is to start with a sad S2, drop it onto a galv chassis. Either find a 4x2 front axle, or rip out the front diff and drive shafts. Parabolic springs. New heavy duty steering rods (they look more convincing), new upholstery. Fit a set of 14" wheels, in respect of Barbara's knees. (I wonder if 13" wheels will fit over 11" brake drums?
Engine? I've been thinking Morris Marina 1800, but until I get a load of metal to look at, I can't make that decision. Maybe a 1300cc would be adequate for my needs. (Power is a drug ... it doesn't matter how much you've got, at the end of the week, it's not enough. My Scimitar GTE pulled 30mph per 1000rpm, red-lined at 6000rpm. I once had Barbara's CRX indicating 1000mph in 3rd gear. ( Please don't tell her). In 1959, I traveled at 550 knots (at 41,000ft) but that was in an RAF Comet. The trouble is, at my age, I know they are out to get me.
Gearbox? I doubt that I will ever actually again need 4WD, but that's where they hide the hand brake. Not insurmountable, but all agro. On the other hand, not using a Landy gearbox would allow an automatic. What exactly are the rules? I know you cant have a hydraulic hand-brake ... but but how is that worded ..,EXACTLY?
Er ... hydraulic secondary braking system, operated by the now defunct clutch pedal, and use P in the auto box for parking? :whistle Probably best if I stop "taking the tablets", and research "carden "disc" hand. brakes.
I will try to resist thinking about having disc brakes all round, with the hand brake incorporated in the caliper. Similarly banishing thoughts of having two calipers on each of the rear discs, both hydraiulic, one foot operated, as normal, the other pumped up by the hand brake lever (or even the defunct clutch pedal.) Actually, a disc "foot+hand" brake, might be the easiest solution. I will ponder.
602
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Doh!
Somebody beat me to it!
I was Googling CARDEN HAND BRAKE CONVERSION, when I found ....
Google ADAPTER FOR EXTRA CALIPERS BMW E36 DRIFT
It appears to be a kit to fit extra calipers (hydraulically operated) to the back axle of your BMW, so you can do "hand brake turns" (not the same thing as "drifting", but hey, what do I know?)
Back to the drawing board!
602