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Main Section => Workshop Wisdom => Other Land Rovers => Topic started by: w3526602 on September 14, 2020, 06:36:12 AM
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Hi,
I'll try to keep this subject to a minimum, but would be grateful for "new dad" information. I haven't the faintest idea what I've bought. :-[
OK, it's a silver £2.000 Freelander on a 54 plate, 5-speed manual, RHD. Five door. It only has one gear lever (and a hill descent button) I found a piece of paper in the bundle of "history", which suggested it's a TD4 ... whatever that is? The fuel gauge read "half" ... it took £50 of diesel. Rear tyres look OK, but fronts seem a bit "unloved" tho' still legal. I'd like to replace them fairly soon. Towbar, No nasty "niffs". Brand new MOT. It seems an honest motor. Towing capacity is 750/2000kg. There seems to be plenty of room in the back seats for the next two generations of off-spring.(one daughter and her two ginormous late teenagers.
Questions! I understand that it is full-time 4x4. Does that mean it will look after itself in snow, or will the centre differential stop me if just one wheel starts to slip? I assume not ... but why not? Does the Hill-start button lock the centre diff?
Can anybody suggest a friendly forum for Freelanders? Maybe I should try DIFFLOCK.COM again? Guestimate of fuel consumption?
602
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Yes - it is full time 4x4 with only high ratio. In reality, its a front wheel drive with a torque split to the rear axle through an IRD (I think from memory that's Intermediate Reduction Drive). Transfer box to you and I, but because its a transverse engine arrangement, and does a slightly modified function, presumably its named differently.
The drive system relies on ABS and therefore traction control to stop wheels spinning and is very effective. I ran one in Bosnia for several winters and if it can cope with that, it can cope with anything the UK can throw at you. Traction control utilises the ABS system to control wheel spin and therefore manage drive across differentials. Its all automatic - no need for driver input.
Hill decent control or HDC is a function which controls off road descent using the ABS and traction control to manage braking on steep descents. Again its very effective, but only works under certain conditions - the primary one being that if you touch the brakes, it will disengage...! That can be a bit scary of you forget and panic.
You appear to have a TD4 Manual Freelander. That's fitted with the BMW M47 Engine. The Range Rover L322 was fitted with a 3 litre 6 cylinder version of this engine and a lot of parts cross over in both engines.
I've just looked on the LR website and there doesn't seem to be an owner's manual for this car listed which seems strange. They are out there and readily available on line though. I have a PDF version which comes with RAVE (the old Rover digital technical information system). You might find one of those CDs on line. If not, PM me and I'll see if I can spare one and send it to you.
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Hi Diffwhine,
Thanks for that.
I'm think you are saying that the 4WD is controlled electronically (electrically). It's probably best if I let it get on with it, and not interfere. But does that mean the rear wheel are not driving if they are not needed? Probably best if I'm left in happy ignorance.
OT ... when I was in Sharjah, 1960, I wrote to Jaguar, saying that there "wasn't much to do in the desert" and I'd like to improve myself ... and did they have any literature that would explain how an automatic gearbox worked?
By return of post I received a workshop manual for a Borg Warner auto gearbox (apparently retailing at £20 .. then ... plus airmail). Very interesting reading.
Reminds me of the two con-men, discussing what they would do about the begging letters, if they won the big one on LOTTO. They decided that, in such an event, they would keep sending the letters.
602
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The weak point on Freelanders is the intermediary reduction drive which I believe fails in the lock up position. Some owners remove the rear propshaft and use front wheel drive only. It's replaceable by a competent home mechanic but it's a fiddly job.
I think the front/rear drive is done by a viscous coupling in the IRD. It senses when drive is needed to the rear and locks accordingly.
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The Freelander 1 is permanent 4WD. There is no centre diff or transfer box. The drive to the rear is taken from the OS of the Getrag 5 speed box (td4 only) by the IRD. This is just there to provide a ever-so-slightly geared down output to the rear prop. The rear prop has a temperamental viscous coupling in it to act as the centre diff to prevent tyre skip during cornering. The viscous coupling can be tested by jacking one rear wheel off the ground with the handbrake off (taking precautions to prevent the vehicle rolling away) and trying to turn the wheel off the ground. It takes a little effort but you should be able to rotate the wheel. If it spins freely the rear prop has been removed! Which is fairly common as the viscous coupling generally isn’t financially viable to replace now the Freelander is getting to the cheaper end of the market.
The tyres are beat replaced in vehicle sets to avoid any overslip of the viscous coupling, or unwanted tyre skip during car park manoeuvring.
The td4 engine is generally good, when I was in the dealerships when they were current vehicles the injectors were replaced quite regularly as was the clutch and flywheel if used as a ‘shopping trolley’. They have quite a weak clutch for a 4WD vehicle and don’t like being slipped while at a standstill, bad driving practice anyway.
The window regulator mechanisms are quite weak, if one fails get a genuine replacement, the aftermarket ones are not up to the job and fail quite quickly.
The sunroof cables also break, when they snap it can make the motor gear skip on the cable rack, which quickly wrecks the motor.
One important thing to mention, the BMW td4 engine has a breather filter, which Land Rover called the cyclone filter. This lives in the top of the rocker cover. It is essential that this is replaced at regular intervals, if using the filter type set up every 12 months at average miles. There was an aftermarket replacement involving fitting the filter BMW used, which didn’t require replacement and was fitted for life. I don’t think they were expensive either, makes a worthwhile upgrade. If the filter is blocked through not being replaced it pressurises the crankcase, leading to turbo failure, blowing the dipstick out and dropping oil everywhere or running away on its own oil.
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John, Dorinda has been running freelander since 2002 so I have plenty of experience of them. As others have said, the weak point can be the VCU which is in the centre of the split propshafts. Tyres should be replaced as sets of four because they need to be of the same rolling radius otherwise the vcu will get hot and become damaged ( perhaps not too much of an issue if you are only doing short journeys). I would be happy to come round and check it over for you. Dave
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Not sure of the later arrangements, but as mentioned above, the earlier models can be viewed as front wd with rear assist. Because of this arrangement the system assumes that the front wheels will be turning faster than the rear.
Should new tyres be fitted at the front, reducing turns per mile, the drivetrain locks up because it thinks there must be wheel spin. That’s where the trouble starts. Simply avoided by fitting new tyres at the REAR.
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Not so sure about just fitting new to rear. The vcu is turning all of the time so will still detect a difference.
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The ratios between the front and rear diffs are slightly different. This means that the drivetrain is effectively always "wound up". On early Freelanders it was more pronounced and therefore IRD and VCU premature failure was more likely. I think it was changed slightly in the early 2000s to reduce the windup and therefore reduce uneven tyre wear. If you remove the rear prop, the transformation is amazing. They drive really well as front wheel drive cars and the steering feels much lighter and easier.
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The ratios between the front and rear diffs are slightly different.
Hi Diffwhine,
I have read that traction off-road can be improved by having different ratios between the axles. I can't remember if it was related to sand, mud, or ice, or all three.
Our Bedford RL trucks could cruise on soft desert sand, in top gear and only two wheel drive ... if you dropped the pressure from 70 to 20. The RLs came with an engine driven tyre pump.
602
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The ratios between the front and rear diffs are slightly different. This means that the drivetrain is effectively always "wound up". On early Freelanders it was more pronounced and therefore IRD and VCU premature failure was more likely. I think it was changed slightly in the early 2000s to reduce the windup and therefore reduce uneven tyre wear. If you remove the rear prop, the transformation is amazing. They drive really well as front wheel drive cars and the steering feels much lighter and easier.
Remember to inform your insurance company if you do
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Hi Mistericeman,
Thanks for that ... I was wondering if the rear prop could be removed. I suspect it would improve both tyre wear and fuel consumption.
My insurers are LV, and I don't think they like modifications. Did LR make a 4x2 version, and is in in a different insurance group.
But is it worth it. We've been with only one car since I sold the Jimny ... Barbara's Daihatsu Ix20, now approaching 30 months old, and also approaching 3,000 miles.
FWHs? But which axle? And is there "any sich naminal"?
I like the Freelander more than I thought I would. Would I want to take it cross-country .. like on a club outing?
602
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Yep a lot of folks do it... And I suspect a lot don't bother saying anything BUT...
If its insured as a standard freelander.... Removing a prop makes it heavily modded to some insurers.
The Freelander was actually very capable off road (especially with decent tyres on)
It went through a heap of intensive testing when it was envisaged....
And frankly needed to be able to hold its own.
https://youtu.be/MyHOhdhkXWw
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I like the Freelander more than I thought I would. Would I want to take it cross-country .. like on a club outing?
602
Apart from a lower ground clearance than a "normal" landrover they are actually quite agile off-road. I did burn out whatever the fancy name for the clutch is on ours though, trying to extract a trailer from mud. The rear windows leaked. Apart from that it was a decent enough vehicle.
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Hi again,
Do I need to buy tyres in packs of four (or five)? The rears are good, but fronts are nearly down to the "bars"... they seem to have worn evenly. I haven't uncovered the spare yet.
At some point we are going to have to see if Barbara can climb into it. She is still unable to exit the house. Her ICA seems to be nearer £70 than the expected £40 ??? It seems sensible not to rock the boat. :whistle
602
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Hi Mistericeman,
Thanks for that ... I was wondering if the rear prop could be removed. I suspect it would improve both tyre wear and fuel consumption.
My insurers are LV, and I don't think they like modifications. Did LR make a 4x2 version, and is in in a different insurance group.
But is it worth it. We've been with only one car since I sold the Jimny ... Barbara's Daihatsu Ix20, now approaching 30 months old, and also approaching 3,000 miles.
FWHs? But which axle? And is there "any sich naminal"?
I like the Freelander more than I thought I would. Would I want to take it cross-country .. like on a club outing?
602
People used to send Freelander's for an MOT without the rear prop on, and MOT people would pass them, then DVSA/DVLA etc stated that as it was a 4x4 when new they were still one, so failed the MOT without a prop fitted, declaring it a vehicle mod.
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People used to send Freelander's for an MOT without the rear prop on, and MOT people would pass them, then DVSA/DVLA etc stated that as it was a 4x4 when new they were still one, so failed the MOT without a prop fitted, declaring it a vehicle mod.
Hi,
I feel a crusade coming on, but I probably won't bother
A Google for FREELANDER 4x2 suggests that LR produced a such a machine.
There is something , somewhere, in the RTA, about maximum speeds for "goods vehicles".
If you fit windows AND seats in a van, it becomes no longer restricted to 50mph (was 40 when I was caught doing 80 in my Minivan, which had seats but no windows). But that does not apply to pick-ups, fitted with extra seats and side mounted "aero-screens". :whistle
Removing drive to either axle will remove the 4x4 speed concession ... so you will need bend your mind around the complicated formula concerning the position of the rear seat squabs in relation to the steering wheel .... etc.
Try to visualise the original Ford Crapi .... huge boot .. arguably a pick-up truck?
602.
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Why not do what the number plate boys do ....
Fit the rear prop for the MoT (fit the legal plates for the test)
Unbolt the rear prop...when you get home.
;)
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Why not do what the number plate boys do ....
Fit the rear prop for the MoT (fit the legal plates for the test)
Unbolt the rear prop...when you get home.
;)
Most insurance companies STILL won't like it....
IF you want a 2 wheel drive car....
Just buy one
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Why oh why the urge to continually make life more complexificated than it already is. You have a nice newish car, it works. It probably needs 2 new tyres. Fit two new tyres, drive the car.
Hopefully the seat squab is that bit lower than a Series LR and Barbara will be able to shuffle in, once you solve the "getting out of the house" problem ?
Good luck !
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Perhaps seats from another Rover will fit.
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Don't mess with the seats. The vehicle was crash tested with those seats in them and they are designed to work with the SRS system which includes individual front seat belt pensioners. Modification is definitely not advised.
Having been upside down after a multiple roll over in a TD4 Freelander, I can guarantee that they are a lot more solid than they may appear. Had they not been, I wouldn't now be able to offer my penny's worth.
Bottom line - if it ain't broke, don't fix it!
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Probably worse than messing with the propshaft ...
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Why oh why the urge to continually make life more complexificated than it already is. ,
Hi Gene,
Simple answer? I like to ponder on "what if?"
Somewhere/somewhen, I read that a reasonable man will be happy to accept life as it is, while an unreasonable man will try to change it. Therefore all progress is down to unreasonable men.
Sometime in the late 1970s, a vital system at DVLC went capute, which could have brought the whole shebang to a standstill. Within minutes, I'd got my team operating a completely different system, bypassing the blockage.My reward? Tea and biscuits with the Director, along with three other "Saviours of the Directorate".
Family folklore says that my Great, Great, Great Grandfather was George Stephenson (you've heard of him?) My research came to a dead end. George's only son, Robert Stephenson, died "without issue". END OF? Maybe not. My grandmother's maiden name was Stephenson, she lived in Middlesborough, my father was involved with steam, and was the spitting image of the statue in Euston station. I will make no claims that I can't substantiate, but if anybody knows anything, please tell.
George Stephenson made three improvements (I don't know what) to the steam engines of his era, that are still being used (at least till recently). But supposing he hadn't?
For the record, I had/have no desire to modify my Freelander .... but "what if ...?"
602
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Why oh why the urge to continually make life more complexificated than it already is. ,
Hi Gene,
Simple answer? I like to ponder on "what if?"
.....
For the record, I had/have no desire to modify my Freelander .... but "what if ...?"
602
Phew, I had visions of another over complicated "project"....
Good luck with the new car !
G.
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.... as long as folks realise they are just day dreams and no one is or has actually done these things.
:wooly-jumper
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... as long as folks realise they are just day dreams and no one is or has actually done these things.
Hi Alan,
I will assume that is not a challenge?
602
PS. Visions of fitting paddles to the wheels (like Clarkson did i Iceland) and go hydroplaning across a bottomless pit full of shark infested sulphuric acid.
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Hi,
I thought I had posted something about my Freelander covering a lot of miles between tank "brimmings", which calculated at something over 30mpg.
I cannot find the relevant notebook. And nor can I find the relavent post, reporting my results and calculations on this forum.
Is there anyway of tracing my recent mails?
602
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Yes ....
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:cheers
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Hi Alan,
Thanks for that.
Was I alone in my ignorance?
602
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Hi,
This Technowimp is still struggling with schoolboy math.
Google says that diesel costs £1.16 per litre in Milton Keynes, so a £50 brimming will be roughly 43 litres, which crude calculations convert to 9.5 gallons.
As the odometer suggested I'd covered 333 miles on 9.5 gallons, that calculates at 35mpg.
Hmmm! Probably best if I wait until the next brimming, and do my calculations using mileage figures that are certain to be correct (according to the odometer), and fuel volume as shown on the pump. As the needle has just dropped off "FULL", that's likely to be a few weeks away.
I'm very happy with the Freelander, although there are some instant niggles with the basic design. Starting from cold is instant.
FAO Gibbo. Yes, I'd like to take up your offer of you running a knowing eye over my truck ... which doesn't seem to comply with what the owner's manual says. I can bring some firewood (not a lot), if you want it. I'm reluctant to leave Barbara for very long. If she falls, she stays fallen until the ambulance arrives. I must investigate one of those "panic button" thingies.
602
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Yes John
You must put all your brain power into coming up with things that are going to make Barbara safe in include her quality of life including as amtter of urgency the panic button. Start with Age Concern for advice and work out from there. My mum had one for years but fortunately she never needed it but it gave her a great deal of confidence.
The freelander works, does its job and musing about modifications is taking up too much brain power.
Peter
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https://www.milweb.net/webvert/a5075/99665 (https://www.milweb.net/webvert/a5075/99665)
(https://www.milweb.net/webvert_images/99665/img_3.jpg)
Looks like W602 has been combining one of his earliest cars and his RAF service. :-X
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Hi Peter,
Thanks for your concern.
Yes, I'd thought about a panic button, just hadn't got round to it. I'm seldom more than a few minutes away from home. I will follow it up.
Barbara cannot get her wheel chair into the apparently wheel-chair friendly shower. Nor can she stand un-aided, and has to clutch whatever is securely nailed in place to move horizontally. She is still unable to exit either exit door. The council say we are not entitled to a Disability Facilities Grant, as we have savings in excess of their NOT generous cut-off limit. Our MP is nailed down in Westminster. Suggestions? I'm prepared to "go for broke" ... but in which direction?
Hi Manx -cat,
Egad! A BSA Tricycle (1934ish) with an 8HP 4-cylinder water cooled engine driving the front wheels, was my first "car". I drove it during the aftermath of Suez, when us learners were allowed to drive unaccompanied. Finding petrol coupons was the difficult bit. I paid £15, plus another £8 for insurance. The previous owner had rolled it, so the front mudguards and pointed tail had be replaced with "token" mudguards cut from old motorcycle mudguards.
I could reckon on being stopped virtually every day, but allowed to proceed when I produced my documents. One policeman told me to "get this abortion off the road" None took any action against me.
Every action has a reaction ... firing that bren-gun would have slowed the car down ... 400 one ounce bullets per minute (I think). I once had a row with the Range Sergeant, while firing a bren. I was firing one round at a time, even though it was set to automatic. "Pull the ****** trigger" he commanded ... so I emptied the magazine in one burst ... which didn't make him happy either. No pleasing some people.
602
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If Barbara can't get out of the house - that's a fire risk!
It's a severe H&S issue - what do the Fire Brigade have to say about it ?
These red tape pen pushers are going to look good when "Wheelchair bound old lady dies in fire because she couldn't get out of the door." Great headline for the papers :shakeinghead
We got my mum an alarm system which included a neck locket. If she fell or was in trouble it would set the alarm off.
Works through the phone. The alarm is monitored 24/7. If it goes off - they ring any number(s) you specify.
The system works - we got several calls for help and were able to get to her in time.
As I recall the service costs a few £s a month. Well worth it for peace of mind - even if you are at home for most of the time.
I have a similar thing built into my Apple watch. If I fall it automatically calls 999 after 30 seconds and or my nominated phone number. Sometimes it's too sensitive, but I can cancel false positives.
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Hi,
Update!
Yesterday, I dropped in on the garage that is replacing the Freelander's clutch, and removing the "knocking exhaust" noise from inside the transmission. I found it standing there with a huge hole where the engine and gearbox should be., so it seems they are getting on with the job.
Barbara told me that the garage had quoted £1,500 to replace the clutch and remove the knock. I assume the garage had phoned while I was elsewhere, doing my daily "Grand Dad" chores, and she had given them the "go-ahead". ??? Presumably, I didn't need to know.
So it looks like I will be returning to the "World of AWD" sometime soon. Two more questions ....
One for Gibbo ... "where should I go, in MK, to buy a complete set of "street" tyres.
Snow has never stopped me, (not even in 1932 4x2 Austin 7, Thetford to Croydon and return, every weekend). But the Freelander's tyres are approaching their "sell by" date.
(I managed to drive from Croydon to Eastbourne, and back every night, in a 1959 Singer Gazelle convertible, in December 1967, when the headlines had declared that the South Coast was cut off by snow. The Sister in charge of the Maternity Ward gave me dispensation to visit, outside of normal visiting times).
On the other hand, I've grown accustomed to having decent rubber between me and the tarmac.
Does anybody here have any knowledge/experience of hoisting a disabled passenger into a Freelander?
602
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Hi,
Latest!
Some weeks ago, Social Services provided an aluminium checker-plate ramp, to enable Barbara to get out of the front door. Actually, they provided two ... the first one was too short, giving a steep departure angle (actually, it would probably have been to steep an approach angle too, if that's the right terminology, but she never got that far). The rear anti-tip (2"dia?) grounded, lifting the driving wheels of the ramp. The 1700mm ramp was taken back, and replaced with a 2100mm ramp, which gave an incline of 1 in 7. (I think 1 in 12 is the legal maximum). Frankly, I did not feel secure walking on it ... two gammy knees and no hand rails.
It had a flip over "bridge", to get over the door-frame up-stand, which Barbara would never have been able to "flip" while sitting in her chariot. She demonstrated that her buggy could get in and out ... and has not used it since.
Fast forward ... Our builder has raised our "dry" brick surfaced drive, in front of the front door, to give a more gentle slope, leaving only about one inch upstand for Barbara to get her buggy over. That slope extends half-way across the drive, which means that any car heading for the garage, will tip to it's left as it passes the front door, but I can live with that. (it's too small for a working garage, so it will become a "man cave".
In Milton Keynes, paths and drives are required to be permeable (leak!). Most everybody in MK uses the same colour house bricks, laid on sand, with no mortar.
I reckon I can cobble a couple of wedges to get the buggy's swivel wheels over that obstacle ... the driving wheels are capable of burning a hole in the carpet if they hit an obstruction. The buggy has only about two inches break-over clearance. I believe you can buy "off-road" invalid buggies in Australia. Try a Google. (They also have off-road caravans in Oz).
Our builder has also laid an 8ft (2.4m) wide drive, also in brick, across 30ft (9m?) of the width of the plot, (9m?) from the edge of the original drive, under the bedroom windows, up to the pavement on the Northern boundary, co-incidentally involving the wheelchair friendly dropped kerb on the street corner. I have used that dropped kerb to get a car onto the plot, but doing so "feels" unnatural. I'll probably save that for special occasions.
Our builder (Irish ... with a degree) "guestimated" £2,000 to do all of the above, but I won't hold him to it. He frequently does little jobs in passing, unasked, and FOC.
I have lots of photos, in my camera, but have forgotten (long time since I did it) how to transfer them to my W10 lap-top. There doesn't seem to be a slot, in either my W7 nor W10 laptops, for my wide "chip". I'll ask my daughter.
602
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Looks like W602 has been combining one of his earliest cars and his RAF service.
Hi Manxcat,
True! I've owned both 3 and 4 wheel BSA, and once (only once) fired a bren. I also once fired a sten (a somewhat inaccurate weapon, unless you want to kill both the enemy and a flock of passing pidgeons with the same burst).
I once read a story about a Spitfire and an ME109, both standing on their wingtips, circling tighter and tighter, until the Me pilot got a fix on the Spitfire, and gave it a short "burst". The recoil slowed the Me, which promptly fell out of the sky.
I wondered if that BSA used the Bren as a means of reversing? Probably not. The BSA had a reverse gear, although as it weighed (from memory) 4 pounds under 8cwt, it counted as a motor cycle, so it was not required to have reverse.
Also from memory, the Morgan three-wheeler (also a motorcycle) had two forward gears (engaged by dog clutches) and no reverse. Rumour had it that the V-twin engine would fire "every other lamp-post". To change up from second gear into top, required closing the throttle (lever on steering wheel), dip the clutch, go into neutral, lift the clutch, count to 65 (slowly), dip the clutch ........... :RHD
602