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Author Topic: Legal translation.please.  (Read 2911 times)

w3526602

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Legal translation.please.
« on: August 07, 2020, 10:45:44 PM »

Hi,

Check out ...;

 b]https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/670431/vehicles-of-historical-interest-substantial-change-guidance.pdf[/b]

Specifically

 .... Changes that are made to preserve a vehicle , which in all cases must be done when original type parts are no longer reasonably available.

and

... in respect of axles and running gear changes made to improve efficiency, safety, or environmental performance

What is meant by "no longer reasonably available"?  Not available NEW?  Not available as PATTERN PART? Not available SECOND HAND? Beyond RECONDITIONING (already re-bored to maximum?) I'm guessing that Rovers would go po-faced if you demanded a NEW S2 engine.

What is meant by "improve efficiency, safety, or environmental performance"? I'm guessing that a brand new Mercedes engine, and independent suspension all round would comply with those requirements.  :whistle Then there is a roll-over-cage-cum-seat-belt-hoop  welded to a new chassis.

Going electric would (I think) obviate any MOT exemption. ???

I'm not suggesting that I want to do any of those things ... just trying to make sense of the regulations. ??? These exceptions were presumably included in the original draft, (pre-Day 1), with "something" in mind.

Little wheels should improve stability and braking.

602
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Genem

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Re: Legal translation.please.
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2020, 11:02:50 PM »

Why not read our Guidance John ?

We published it two years ago and its been repeated multiple times since.
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I'm not totally daft, some bits are missing

Genem

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Re: Legal translation.please.
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2020, 11:04:30 PM »

Here is the full text.

MOT Exemption post 20 May 2018.

Introduction

The Series 2 Club has been requested to provide advice to members on the declaration of exemption from the requirement for annual MOT testing for “Vehicles of Historic Interest”. The decision to declare your vehicle exempt from the MOT is yours alone, the Club takes no responsibility if our interpretation of the DfT guidelines is incorrect. The following therefore provides the Club’s view on interpretation of the DfT guidance as it specifically relates to our vehicles, provided as a group of volunteers, in good faith and based on our knowledge of the Marque. We note in particular its history of gradual development through evolutionary change and the legendary adaptability of the vehicle which lead to its early and continued in-service modification as owners “improved” their vehicle. We therefore recognise that a major element in the “historical interest” of our vehicles may well be the modifications made to them in 60 years of use.

The first point to note is that despite many of our vehicles becoming eligible for MOT exemption, it remains the driver’s responsibility to ensure their vehicle is roadworthy at all times. Being exempt from testing does not remove this requirement. Regular maintenance and checks are recommended for all road-going vehicles.

The MOT system is a cheap, simple and proven method of obtaining an impartial condition check which may spot issues that even well qualified owners may have missed. The Club would advise that submitting a vehicle for an MOT Test will provide peace of mind to all owners seeking confirmation of their vehicle’s mechanical condition or uncertain of their vehicle’s eligibility due to modifications.

Owners should also recognise that the modifications allowable under this scheme, involving in-service replacement of engines, axles and suspension could, under certain circumstances, result in a vehicle which would fail the strict “8 points” DVLA requirement to retain or reclaim its original identity.

Note also that some vehicles previously MOT exempt on age grounds (Pre 1960) WILL require MOT Testing if they have been “substantially modified” in the last 30 years.

Forward Control Vehicles: Sadly FC vehicles have a gross weight of 3700Kg which takes them 200Kg over the limit and into the “Goods Vehicle” category, needing an MOT.


The Club Advice: If in you are in any Doubt get your vehicle tested.

The following text in Italics is extracted from the Department for Transport Guidance, with our explanatory advice added below in Green text. Text irrelevant to our Landrovers has been deleted. 

The criteria for substantial change

A vehicle will be considered substantially changed if the technical characteristics of the main components have changed in the previous 30 years, unless the changes fall into specific categories. These main components for vehicles......are:

Chassis (replacements of the same pattern as the original are not considered a substantial change).

The Club considers that this allows ‘like for like’ replacement such as reproduction galvanised chassis, repairs and replacement of outriggers, cross-members, movement of engine mounts etc.

Changes to the chassis geometry such as shortening, lengthening, removal of chassis elements or substitution of coil-sprung chassis would NOT meet the criteria and would require MOT Testing. The only exception to this would be where positive proof that the alteration was made over 30 years ago can be provided.

Members will recognise that there is a particular issue with later vehicles with little or no Series 2 content being offered for sale as “Series 2” vehicles. For the avoidance of doubt, the identity of a vehicle remains with its Chassis. No Series 2, 2a or 2b vehicles were produced with chassis fitted with Coil Sprung suspension and very few were altered within the “over 30 years ago” criteria allowed by this scheme. It is highly unlikely that a coil-sprung vehicle can claim to be a “Series 2” or claim MOT exemption.

Axles and running gear – alteration of the type and or method of suspension or steering constitutes a substantial change;

The Club would advise that this excludes the use of coil-sprung chassis. Power steering and disc brake systems would be acceptable under the safety/efficiency criteria listed below. Conversion between LHD & RHD where both relay positions are available is acceptable.   

Engine – alternative cubic capacities of the same basic engine and alternative original equipment engines are not considered a substantial change. If the number of cylinders in an engine is different from the original, it is likely to be, but not necessarily, the case that the current engine is not alternative original equipment.

The Club would consider that any LR engine used during the production run of LR leaf-sprung vehicles or developed from them, such as the Tdi range, would be acceptable together with engines commonly fitted when they were in general use. Engines such as the Perkins Diesel and Ford V6 were also popular modifications during the period when the vehicles were in regular use and would meet the “in general use or 10 years” criteria below.

The following are considered acceptable (not substantial) changes if they fall into these specific categories:

Changes that are made to preserve a vehicle, which in all cases must be when original type parts are no longer reasonably available;

The Club considers “reasonably available” to mean that parts are available commercially and “off the shelf” to an Original Equipment specification. Owners should not feel pressurised to accept sub-standard “pattern” parts or pay exorbitant bespoke production costs if other parts can be utilised.   

Changes of a type, that can be demonstrated to have been made when vehicles of the type were in production or in general use (within ten years of the end of production);

The Club will consider “The Type” to have been in production until the end of S3 (leaf-sprung) production. Reasoning based on the S2/S3 junction being essentially cosmetic with most mechanical parts interchangeable.

In respect of axles and running gear changes made to improve efficiency, safety or environmental performance;

As above, this would include power-steering, dual line/servo, brake drum size increases and disk brake conversions. The Club would advise that any alteration to the original braking or steering system is checked for safety by a suitable competent individual, an MOT Test would meet this requirement.

In respect of vehicles that have been commercial vehicles, changes which can be demonstrated were being made when they were used commercially.

The club would advise that this should involve evidence such as period photography or other written evidence.

This guidance is only intended to determine the testing position of a substantially changed vehicle, not its registration.

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w3526602

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Re: Legal translation.please.
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2020, 06:45:17 AM »

Hi Genem,

Thankyou for that. Yes, I have read it, several times, but not in the context of the question that I just asked.

I have accepted that changing the engine for something different, will NOW preclude MOT exemption. That in itself is not a major problem, but involves minor niggles. For instance, I would be reluctant to let a tyre touch public tarmac, without the vehicle being street legal. In a previous life, I was manager of DVL Enforcement Teams (both Medical and VED, and have some idea of how they think thought (I "retired" in 1985). Medical Enforcement Branch endeavored to help, Vehicle Enforcement Branch ... er ... less so. My knowledge is well out of date.

Wittsend recently advised me that changing the engine would cancel any MOT exemption. I checked (within my limited abilities) and found he appears to be right. But the engine is only worth one point towards the eight points needed to avoid "radicalisation".   ???  I get the impression that the rules have changed. Recently? Retrospectively? Perhaps one set of rules is being used for two different situiations ... MOT Exemption, and  IVA Avoidance?  Am I understanding that correctly?

I was querying my confusion over apparently contradictory rules  :stars (Lets stay with  "engines", as they are the easiest to understand despite being worth only one point). I can retain a somewhat thirsty, and polluting S2 engine, but continue to be MOT exempt, but if I fit a Honda CRV VTEC engine (I wish) I will require a full MOT, despite it (apparently/arguably) not losing me any Brownie points towards an IVA avoidance target (because it is a less polluting and more fuel efficient engine).

Independent suspension all round should (in theory) be safer, and therefore IVA acceptable, without incuring MOT penalties ... but I won't go into that. :whistle   Power steering?

602
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Safari John

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Re: Legal translation.please.
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2020, 10:39:57 AM »

WOW! No wonder there is so much confusion on the subject. Personally I think an annual inspection makes very good sense.

It will interesting to see how I get on the in future when I go for Historic status with mine. Last taxed in 1988 as a diesel but the left the factory as a petrol. I do like the sound of dual brakes/servo for peace of mind. Already have 6 cylinder brakes fitted.

I will have to wait and see if I can reuse the current Series 3 2.3 diesel or whether I need another engine. The rules seem clear enough that I could revert to petrol by fitting a Rover V8 with carbs. As a "petrol head" I would love to do that, but I will be keeping it diesel for now. KISS!

Also currently fitted with an S3 gearbox, but I do have a spare S2 box as well (not the original).

I still have a way to go yet before all of this becomes relevant.

As a newcomer, it would be useful to hear from other club members who have done these things and their experiences with officialdom.  I know this is the sort of thing we usually get at club/pub meets.

Withdrawal symptoms, me thinks!
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1967 109SW 2.3 Diesel (ex 2.6 Petrol) on rebuild

w3526602

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Re: Legal translation.please.
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2020, 01:18:24 PM »

Hi Safari John,

When I bought my last project (The Aunt), DVLA phoned me, to say that I was "just in time", as being removed from their main file was imminent.  I don't know how relevent that was, as I did have the original VE60 (cardboard logbook) complete with DVLC numbers and editing.

I also had an early V5 Registration Document, which meant I could do a "Change of Keeper" for the price of a stamp, and start the ball rolling again, with a later version of the V5..

When she was up and running, I arranged insurance, and trundled down to the local Post Office. The bloke behind the counter checked  V5 and cover note, didn't ask for an MOT, and gave me a tax disc, but kept the V5.  A new V5 duly arrived, with the Tax Class amended to "Historic Exempt". Easy Peasy.

Hey! That's the answer to my problem ... arrange  very low mileage Classic insurance, for lo-bucks, already VED and MOT exempt, so I can shunt the truck around our side street and into where I want it, then suspend the policy, until needed.  I believe surrendering the policy immediately , will produce only a 50% refund ... details are on the policy document, I assume all insurers sing from the same hymn sheet?

But that was then (earlier this morning).

 I am not aware I have ever insulted anybody on this forum ... or any forum.  I am still miffed at my public chastisement, when I asked for help.

602
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Wittsend

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Re: Legal translation.please.
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2020, 01:41:53 PM »

Insuring your "project" is not a bad idea whether it's on the road or not. It will be covered for theft and or destruction and any damage it may cause to a 3rd party.


 :RHD
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w3526602

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Re: Legal translation.please.
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2020, 03:45:47 PM »

Insuring your "project" is not a bad idea whether it's on the road or not.

Hi Allan,

Most (all?) insurers offer "laid up" cover, for not a lot of bucks. Very inexpensive, but I doubt that it would cover setting tyre on tarmac (nor even a grassy public right of way ... which might include on land that YOU own).

602
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Genem

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Re: Legal translation.please.
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2020, 05:33:41 PM »

^^^^

I dunno, the offer for one of mine, currently SORN, was about 2/3s the price of actually insuring it fully Comp. I declined.
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Safari John

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Re: Legal translation.please.
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2020, 07:37:53 PM »

Hey John,

thanks for responding to me. I hope the public flogging wasn't too severe, although as you pointed out, what did you do? As the Centurion said to Brian "DON'T DO IT AGAIN"....

I suppose you could always unlock a FWH next time he is off-roading and have a giggle. Not that I have EVER done anything like that, but I have heard other people telling me how its done....  :-X

Mine came with a V5C and I SORNed it straight away. Funny thing is when I check online it doesn't say SORN, but I was clever. I wrote the SORN number down at the time. I should watch myself. Nothing good ever came out of being smug.... :-X

I wonder how much I should value my project (a.k.a. pile of bits) for insurance purposes? It would be useful to get a consensus from the club, rather than my mates down the pub (remember those times?). Are there some preferred companies within the club for this?

A penny for your thoughts, sir.
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w3526602

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Re: Legal translation.please.
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2020, 05:42:31 AM »

A penny for your thoughts, sir.

Hi SJ,

Do you have another car, which IS insured?  If so read the POLICY DOCUMENT, which probably runs to two or three pages, and is effectively, your contract.

Somewhere amongst all the boring stuff, you will find details of the Insurer's NO CLAIMS discounts ... which is worth knowing about ... I have met insurers who do not, (or only slightly) cancel your NCD for the first claim. But to get back on topic ... there will also be a reference to "laid-up vehicle" cover .. which might not be the same as a "laid-up ]policy" (which is for when you are temporarilly without wheels. It is more beneficial. in the long run, to "suspend" a policy than to "surrender" it, and get a small fraction of your premium refunded. It's been a very long time since I read a Policy.

I suggest you find an insurer/broker, who can offer you a decent deal, THEN raise the matter of Laid Up Cover. He might be disappointed, but at least you are in his clutches (he gets First Dibs when your project  is ready for the road).

I suspect that "Laid Up Cover" will include some Third Part, Fire and Theft cover ... for when your project spontaneously combusts, and burns your neighbour's house down, or falls off it's jack, and crushes the same neighbour's pedigree Siamese "brood queen".

602

PS ... and stand to Attention when you address me a "Sir"!)  :-X
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w3526602

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Re: Legal translation.please.
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2020, 09:30:15 AM »

Hi Genem.

PM sent.

602
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Safari John

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Re: Legal translation.please.
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2020, 10:25:52 AM »

Yes SIR!  :-X

Thanks for that, John. It serves as a reminder that insurance cover for a project can be overlooked.

Me thinks I will be speaking with my insurance broker this week.

Muchas gracias Senor
J



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w3526602

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Re: Legal translation.please.
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2020, 02:08:42 PM »

Hi yet again

The rules have been changed (i don't know when. Recently???) Take a shufti at ...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/historic-classic-vehicles-mot-exemption-criteria/historic-classic-vehicles-mot-exemption-criteria

I understand this is the latest ruling, and cancels all previous rulings

To MY eyes, it does NOT suggest that a Ford Transit engine may be fitted if you wish to retain MOT exemption. There is no mention of an SVA, however, where a different engine costs you only ONE POINT.  It does not clarify if that particular one point would take all the other points with it.

I will now wind my neck in.

602
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Genem

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Re: Legal translation.please.
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2020, 02:41:52 PM »

^^^^ Thanks John, no, no change to what was published in 2018 as far as I can tell, the document they link to is the one we were presented with back then. All they have done is change the presentation of the webpage.

Cheers,

Gene
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