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Main Section => Welcome to our virtual Pub Meeting ... => Topic started by: PuG on June 01, 2020, 08:30:00 PM
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Before I start! I know this subject has been discussed and talked to death, but looking back on the old forum allot of contradictory posts.
I have a braked trailer plated 737kg kerb weight. Gross (MAM) of 2100kg's.
Can I tow that as long as the vehicle and trailer does not exceed 3.5 tons in actual weight together? (passed my test after 1997, Cat B)
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car
What worried me is the following line:
- tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg
I first read it as it clearly states > the combined < total MAM of the trailer and MAM of vehicle as plated (Defender Wolf in this case), in which case that would exceed 3.5 tons (4.1 tons) regardless of the actual gross load train weight.
> My second interpretation was the MAM of the trailer, and the actual (real life weight) of the Land Rover when combined on a weigh bridge must not exceed 3.5 tons.
As plated on the LR:
2600
6100
1-1200
2-1500
Cheers, James
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:can_of_worms :agh
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On a cat B licence you cannot drive that rig if the GTW exceeds 3500kg. That's how I would interperate it. You could argue that if the unladen weights are under 3500kg (combined) all well and good, but as I understand it you would then only have 13KG carrying capacity for the trailer. You could therefore tow the trailer without any load (possibly) but what would be the point?
What are you actually trying to do?
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Thanks, I agree with that.
So either I down plate the total MAM of the trailer to 900kg's or convince my fiance to take her trailer license :)
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No I don't think that's right as there are further restrictions depending on when you passed your test. After a certain date you can only tow a 750KG gross trailer regardless of GTW.
Why not just do B&E yourself?
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My understanding was laden weight of trailer must not exceed unladen weight of vehicle, and combined maximum train weight must not exceed 3.5 tonnes.
For example my 88 weighs 1455kg according to the log book, let's say 1500. 500kg payload in an 88 (or there abouts, 1/2 Ton). 2 tonne MAM.
My sankey narrow track is 375kg empty, 3/4 ton payload. Google says 1283kg MAM. This is lower than the unladen vehicle weight, and the combined MAM is under 3.3 tonnes.
As such, legal to drive under a category B licence. I do still need to do my cat E though... one day!
In short, no I don't think you can unless you down plate the trailer. Is that even still allowed?
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Hi,
A lot of people assume an 88" Land Rover weighs (nominally) "one and a half tons". Nominally is not good enough. Take it to a public weigh bridge and get it weighed, and keep the ticket. My S1 88", fitted with a Marsland S3 galv chassis, showed 1460kg on the weighbridge. I doubt that the petrol tank was full.
But before going to the weigh bridge, read the rules to see exactly what you should be weighing. There's unladen weight, and there's kerb weight They are not the same. Make a careful note of how they are measured, what is included in the weight, etc. It would not surprise me to learn that the kerb-weight will vary, according to who is driving it.
I have seen it argued (and could not disagree) that Maximum Gross Weight (3500kg) includes the weight of the trailer ... which might explain why some sources quote 2000kg as the maximum towing weight. But is that the Maximum Permitted Gross Weight? Or the maker's recommended gross weight? Or is it a ploy to keep the Vehicle Excise Duty down?
Regardless of anything else, the MPGW of a vehicle is limited by the MGW figure embossed on the tyres. I believe that small vans can be fitted with higher load capacity tyres (£££) but I've never investigated that, other than to find they were more expensive. Land Rovers?
And now it's crunch time. I would argue that if if the actual MGW of the vehicle you are driving exceeds the maximum permitted by your driving licence, then you are driving without a licence, and are therefore NOT INSURED.
There is/was something in the rules that allows just about anything (?) or anybody(?), to tow a trailer under 750kg, but it is at least 35 years (I retired in 1985) since I studied that (simply because the book of rules was available to me). I understood it was to allow "Yorkie" to tow his bedroom around, and has probably been superceded by 5-star cabs.
Repeat ... if you exceed your licence entitlement, you ain't licenced, and therefore you ain't insured either. (That is writ large on your certificate of insurance). An overloaded vehicle may be driven to the nearest public weighbridge, by appointment. I can't remember if it may be driven home if overweight.
I have read of holiday makers in Europe being forced to abandon their driverless car (towed by an A-frame) because they only had one driver between their motor-home, and the car it was towing.
602
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There were several of these threads on the old forum. What I do recall regarding total MAM was that DVSA as the enforcing authority would only take into account the actual weights as measured at the roadside.
As long as neither the vehicle or trailer were individually overloaded and the actual weight was within the vehicles towing limits (+ driving licence entitlement), then they consider no offence has been committed. This ignores totaling up the MAM as shown on the vehicles/trailers plates.
The club member who did this research even got as far as a letter from the DVSA confirming this.
Inspite of already having the necessary driving entitlement, I had to take my employers trailer training & assesment several years ago. The instructor confirmed for me again that the above interpretation was correct.
HTH
Dormy
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Hi,
During a previous life, I would receive reports of HGV "tractor units" being driven on UK roads displaying PLG tax discs. The driver's excuse (acceptable then, maybe still?) was that he only pulled trailers on main-land Europe, and at the time of the alleged offence, the tractor unit was his personal transport while he came home to visit the wife and kids, and should be VED'd like any other car.
Things may be different now.
602
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Thanks again for the replies.
I'm trying to get the trailer home, so it will be unloaded apart from possibly an Series engine lumped in the back later on. Its a horse box, I don't intend to put anything heavy inside, its for us to convert into a market stall for selling our meat (so one 80kg fridge unit) and some new paint.
As for the trailer test I've tried twice in the past, with lessons etc and eventually ran out of money and time. Failed on both occasions and not to do with trailer towing but general driving mistakes (however all trivial!) - I took three attempts on my driving test in the first place. I'm just rubbish when it comes to actual testing and the instructor told me there's nothing wrong and more they can do, I spend all day, nearly everyday driving tractors with big trailers and short draw bar rollers all around narrow sheds and steep land, and most of our gate posts and walls are still upright.. anyway if my fiance can get the license then at least I could drive the trailer provisionally with her beside.
This is the problem - if you follow the gov website with the link I provided it clearly states if the vehicle and trailer combined maximum authorized mass exceeds 3.5 tons then you shouldn't be towing the trailer. Then the secondary regulation, that the MAM of the trailer must not exceeds the kerb weight of the vehicle without having a B + E license.
You can still re-plate yourself. The manufacture requirement so I read is only an "advisement" that's then been embellished into law by the keyboard warriors?
Boiling it down to Dormy,
There were several of these threads on the old forum. What I do recall regarding total MAM was that DVSA as the enforcing authority would only take into account the actual weights as measured at the roadside.
As long as neither the vehicle or trailer were individually overloaded and the actual weight was within the vehicles towing limits (+ driving licence entitlement), then they consider no offence has been committed. This ignores totaling up the MAM as shown on the vehicles/trailers plates.
The club member who did this research even got as far as a letter from the DVSA confirming this.
This was how I always believed it worked, which goes to figure as common sense. That as long as your car and trailer combined, physical weight, did not breach 3.5 tons on the road than you should be fine. Its irrelevant that the MAM exceeds these figures.
Beyond that website link I cannot find any driving regulations online.
Yes its my fault, I bought it assuming the above, not the MAM restrictions..
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Its irrelevant that the MAM exceeds these figures.
Hi PuG,
I agree that make sense... but ...but ... take the JENSEN lorry (Google), which was built out of aluminium to beat some historic weight/speed regulation (possibly the 1940s 20mph speed limit ... does anybody remember the 20mph plates on the back of lorries?)
Would us Plebs be allowed to drive it laden? Or even unladed.
602
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Hi,
Google says that the Jensen lorry has an ULW below 3 tons, but a quick shufti revealed nothing more. Anybody???
602 (who has yearned for a 541 since the early 1960s)
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Hi,
Google also reveals that an unladen Bedford SL 4x2 weighs 4.5 tons.
602
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As I understand it, if you get ‘pulled by the Ministry’ they are only concerned with actual weight.
Driving licence entitlement is a different matter.
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It may be best to have a telephone conversation with someone at DVSA (if open) and thenask for confirmation by email so that you have solid evidence. we can all inerpret the rules but it is their interpretation that counts.
Peter
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Hi Both (last two)
Your answers/advice make sense, Thankyou ... I'll (try) to drop out of the argument now. I don't anticipate doing anything "extreme" in whatever future is left to me.
602
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I'll just throw this in here - I asked a question of VOSA back in 2013, asking if you could tow a trailer plated at 3.5 ton unladen with a 2 ton vehicle, and received this in reply:
"I refer to your mail of 13 February to VOSA Enquiries with the above title.
You need to have category B+E on your driving licence to tow a 3.5 tonne GVW trailer with a private car/van. Category B limits the combined car + trailer GVWs to a total of 3.5 tonnes which is where the confusion arises. However I confirm that for technical purposes a motor vehicle can tow any trailer provided the towing vehicle's towing capacity or Gross Train Weight is not exceeded, regardless of the Gross Vehicle Weight of the Trailer. Thus your example vehicle with a 2.0 tonne towing capacity can legally tow an unladen trailer weighing say 1 tonne even though the trailer GVW is 3.5 tonnes provided you have the B+E driving licence.
The only regulations that make usage limitations based on trailer GVW rather than actual weight are some categories of driving licence (as mentioned above), tachograph and driver's hours, and goods vehicle operator licensing. Those that govern overloading offences, the Authorised Weight Regulations 1998 and the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 do not.
Steve Whitehart
Heavy Vehicle Process Manager
Testing and Support Services
Customer Service Centre
VOSA Swansea"
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I also have this in my records:
(http://www.rms1.co.uk/landy/temp/vosa.jpg)
:tiphat
Robin.
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That is good Robin but if they work anything like DVLA it is alway wise to check their latest interpretation.
Peter
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When the police check weighed vans and light vehicles they would insist that the driver and any passengers stood on the bridge all part of the actual weight when been driven. Didn't bother with the HGVs.
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The above email and document give a clear answer regarding mechanical towing weights (ie the actual weight it is used, not gross) but don't help much about the listening aspect. They seem to be saying you need b&e in any case. I'd suggest not exceeding 750kg trailer weight without b&e. Note that a series vehicle is limited to a 500KG unbraked trailer weight limit, not 750KG which is simply the legal maximum.
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Yes, I reckon that's right. Minefield.
So from the letters etc any physical trailer checks by DVSA they would only be concerned in overall train road weight and suitability etc. But if your pulled by the police for example then that would be presumably a license check, and that falls in the realm of the DVLA e.g. MAM + MAM = SHT.
Amazing how complicated they can manage to make it, and completely unnecessary. I'm not one to throw around the word given half a penny but I feel slightly discriminated. I understand why from a political point of view the need for extra licenses (after all it earns them money and makes them feel important) but its heavy handed for the B category - keep the 3.5 tons total but scrap going of the maximum authorized mass plates. Just because the plate says X weight doesn't mean your obliged to carry the full load...
For information, if your in France, you can take a D69, 7 hour tuition course (safe handling), doesn't have an exam at the end, which allows you to drive up to 4250kg's total MAM.
If my engine wasn't broken in the Series in the first place then I would just down plate the trailer and pull it with that.
Cheers,
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I used to keep a boat weighing 2 1/2 tons at a boatyard, who pulled it out for storage ashore every winter. The boat was stored on my own 4-wheel trailer, but it would be charged for if I left it empty at the yard during the summer, so I towed it home.
Cue endless argument about whether that was legal or not - the trailer weight was of no consequence to the car, if empty, but some argued that it was the theoretical laden weight that mattered regardless.
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I was told a few years ago by a driving instructor that it's the plated weight that counts. It seems there's some confusion then, even from people who should know better.
For what it's worth, I did my trailer training/test in a day for <£200. It's not that big a deal, and then you've got no worries about the law - or interpretations thereof.
Amazing how complicated they can manage to make it, and completely unnecessary. I'm not one to throw around the word given half a penny but I feel slightly discriminated. I understand why from a political point of view the need for extra licenses (after all it earns them money and makes them feel important) but its heavy handed for the B category - keep the 3.5 tons total but scrap going of the maximum authorized mass plates. Just because the plate says X weight doesn't mean your obliged to carry the full load...
Regulation changes are a pain, but I think in this case there's a solid safety reasoning behind it. I've done a car test, motorbike test, lorry test, and a trailer test - my parents can both drive almost everything that I can, just because they did a car test way back in the mists of time. I should be quite annoyed by this, but then I look at the average standard of driving on the roads and think 'yea, probably just as well they aren't all licensed to drive a 7.5 tonne truck with a massive trailer'.
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I can see that doing a trailer test gives you the correct license to drive (and the skills of course), but it doesn't resolve the doubts about pulling the trailer in the first place?
Supposing your vehicle weighs 1.5 tonnes, and you want to move an empty trailer rated to carry 10 tonnes that weighed 1 tonne. Is that legal?
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Hi
My reading of the above is in conflict with my understanding of previous readings. I'm not going to argue about which is right .... but ... if you comply with what the plates say, you should be above reproach (even if you're wrong)
... it's a minefield ... worst case scenario? ... driving uninsured!
Can anybody here think of a way of utilising a simple torque wrench to check the weight on each wheel, and and and the tow hitch? I suspect (brain on gimbals) it should be easy on trailers weighing up to 200kg ... just poke the torque wrench into a 1/2" square hole, and lift. My brain starts to hurt when I think about moving that hole outside the wheel plan, to get some leverage. :stars I'll get my coat.
I have read about "weighing" plates, but haven't the faintest idea what they are.
How about a two-pronged fork, shoved under a tyre, and the ubiquitous "Tapley" house brick as a pivot, Stand on the other end of the fork handle. If the wheel lifts, you are safe to go.
Weld a pointer onto the arm of the rubber suspension, and paint a scale on the side of the trailer?
Your move, I'll get my other coat.
602
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Robin's posts are consistent with my own experience from 2017.
It makes sense that a towing vehicle has a maximum allowable towing weight.
It makes sense that a trailer has a maximum load capacity.
Because the combination can be changed around, it makes sense to use actual weights to establish whether a combination is fundamentally legal or not.
What I can't work out the logic behind is using plated weight rather than actual weight to determine whether a combination is legal for a particular individual to tow or not, based on their licence. It is no safer for someone without B+E to tow a fully loaded, unbraked trailer plated at 750kg MAM than an unladen braked trailer weighing 500kg but plated at 3500kg. However, this is the way that the law has been established.
In my case, I was looking at ways to mill and extract timber from a difficult site with nowhere suitable to leave a trailer. I have a pre-'97 licence, my wife's is post-'97 and my trailer has an unladen weight below 750kg but plated at 3500kg. I was looking to establish whether it was legal for her to bring the trailer over to me at the end of the day so that I could load it up and bring it back. DVSA was quite helpful and confirmed that it would be legal if I re-plated it down to 750kg and then swapped the plate before I drove it back. Screws were considered acceptable as 'permanent fixings' as required for the plate. I think I still have this in writing, but it was a few years ago so everything is subject to change. As an aside, the same job got me as far as a discussion with the construction and use team, who confirmed that on a trailer with external wheel arches, the arches count as the external dimensions of the trailer rather than the box body. This meant the difference between having to notify every police force in every county I drove back through (three within three miles of my house) as to what route I would be taking at what time, and simply driving back when convenient.
The point of the above comment is that I have found the people responsible to be quite helpful in clarifying, but specifics do seem to be rather open to re-interpretation and having something up to date in writing would be advisable before actually putting yourself in a position where you may need to have a legal discussion.
Alec
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Well said Alec
A written statement from"the horses mouth" is always best
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Supposing your vehicle weighs 1.5 tonnes, and you want to move an empty trailer rated to carry 10 tonnes that weighed 1 tonne. Is that legal?
Practically, that's not a concern for a B or B+E licence holder. Any trailer rated at >3500kg is going to have coupled brakes, which basically means it's going to attach to a farm type tractor or a lorry type tractor unit.
That's an extreme example though. For trailers within the realms of the B+E licence, I was told when I did my B+E test that you had to match the towing vehicle to the plated max weight of the trailer. So, for example, you couldn't tow an unladen trailer which weighs 1000kg empty and is rated at max 3500kg unless the vehicle is rated to tow 3500kg.
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There is just as much discussion about this on French websites as well. If I'm remembering correctly, everything here is done on plated weights. The difference is that the trailer has its own logbook with technical information recorded - so no chance of replating!
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There are two different sets of regulations.
1. Licence eligibility, which relates to plated weights, which interests the police.
2. Actual weight, checked at roadside by other authorities.
You would think they should be comparable, but that would be too easy.
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This company svtech.co.uk are the specialists in up-plating and down-plating vehicles . Sometimes it’s just a paper exercise , sometimes it’s a case of updating suspension eg, an Air Assist kit to supplement the springs ( these can often be fitted on a DIY basis ). I’ve just fitted one to my 4250 kg MGVW motorhome although not for plating , just comfort and stability .
They will be able to advise you , very nice people I’ve heard .
Also the caravan club CAMC.co.uk will be able to clarify your licence options .
HTH
Regards Andy
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Hi,
The MGW of ANY trailer vehicle is trumped by the little figures embossed on the tyre sidewalls.
One wonders if one can be done for towing an unladen trailer which has tyres rated at less than the trailer's MGW?
OT ... in the case of articulated HGVs, the tractor unit may not pull a trailer that that takes the MGW over it's VED band. It's up to the Transport Manager to decide how to handle the loss of surrendering a virtual tax disc in the middle of a month, which for all intents and purposes, means paying twice for that month. And then he has to decide whether to revert, at the end of the month. :stars
Officialdom will follow their own counsel ... until over-ruled by the Court of Appeal. Any volunteers?
602