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[PuG]

Before I start! I know this subject has been discussed and talked to death, but looking back on the old forum allot of contradictory posts.

I have a braked trailer plated 737kg kerb weight. Gross (MAM) of 2100kg's.

Can I tow that as long as the vehicle and trailer does not exceed 3.5 tons in actual weight together? (passed my test after 1997, Cat B)

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car

What worried me is the following line:

• tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg

I first read it as it clearly states > the combined < total MAM of the trailer and MAM of vehicle as plated (Defender Wolf in this case), in which case that would exceed 3.5 tons (4.1 tons) regardless of the actual gross load train weight.

> My second interpretation was the MAM of the trailer, and the actual (real life weight) of the Land Rover when combined on a weigh bridge must not exceed 3.5 tons.

As plated on the LR:

2600
6100
1-1200
2-1500

Cheers, James

 

[Dentman]

  

[22900013A]

On a cat B licence you cannot drive that rig if the GTW exceeds 3500kg. That's how I would interperate it. You could argue that if the unladen weights are under 3500kg (combined) all well and good, but as I understand it you would then only have 13KG carrying capacity for the trailer. You could therefore tow the trailer without any load (possibly) but what would be the point?

What are you actually trying to do?

[PuG]

Thanks, I agree with that.

So either I down plate the total MAM of the trailer to 900kg's or convince my fiance to take her trailer license :)

[22900013A]

No I don't think that's right as there are further restrictions depending on when you passed your test. After a certain date you can only tow a 750KG gross trailer regardless of GTW.

Why not just do B&E yourself?

[Calum]

My understanding was laden weight of trailer must not exceed unladen weight of vehicle, and combined maximum train weight must not exceed 3.5 tonnes.

For example my 88 weighs 1455kg according to the log book, let's say 1500. 500kg payload in an 88 (or there abouts, 1/2 Ton). 2 tonne MAM.

My sankey narrow track is 375kg empty, 3/4 ton payload. Google says 1283kg MAM. This is lower than the unladen vehicle weight, and the combined MAM is under 3.3 tonnes.
As such, legal to drive under a category B licence. I do still need to do my cat E though... one day!

In short, no I don't think you can unless you down plate the trailer. Is that even still allowed?

[w3526602]

Hi,

A lot of people assume an 88" Land Rover weighs (nominally) "one and a half tons". Nominally is not good enough. Take it to a public weigh bridge and get it weighed, and keep the ticket. My S1 88", fitted with a Marsland S3 galv chassis, showed 1460kg on the weighbridge. I doubt that the petrol tank was full.

But before going to the weigh bridge, read the rules to see exactly what you should be weighing. There's unladen weight, and there's kerb weight  They are not the same. Make a careful note of how they are measured, what is included in the weight, etc.  It would not surprise me to learn that the kerb-weight will vary, according to who is driving it.

I have seen it argued (and could not disagree) that Maximum Gross Weight (3500kg) includes the weight of the trailer ... which might explain why some sources quote 2000kg as the maximum towing weight. But is that the Maximum Permitted Gross Weight? Or the maker's recommended gross weight?  Or is it a ploy to keep the Vehicle Excise Duty down?

Regardless of anything else, the MPGW of a vehicle is limited by the MGW figure embossed on the tyres. I believe that small vans can be fitted with higher load capacity tyres (£££) but I've never investigated that, other than to find they were more expensive. Land Rovers?

And now it's crunch time. I would argue that if if the actual MGW of the vehicle you are driving exceeds the maximum permitted by your driving licence, then you are driving without a licence, and are therefore NOT INSURED.

There is/was something in the rules that allows just about anything (?) or anybody(?), to tow a trailer under 750kg, but it is at least 35 years (I retired in 1985) since I studied that (simply because the book of rules was available to me). I understood it was to allow "Yorkie" to tow his bedroom around, and has probably been superceded by 5-star cabs.

Repeat ... if you exceed your licence entitlement, you ain't licenced, and therefore you ain't insured either. (That is writ large on your certificate of insurance). An overloaded vehicle may be driven to the nearest public weighbridge, by appointment. I can't remember if it may be driven home if overweight.

I have read of holiday makers in Europe being forced to abandon their driverless car (towed by an A-frame) because they only had one driver between their motor-home, and the car it was towing.

602

[Dormy]

There were several of these threads on the old forum. What I do recall regarding total MAM was that DVSA as the enforcing authority would only take into account the actual weights as measured at the roadside.

As long as neither the vehicle or trailer were individually overloaded and the actual weight was within the vehicles towing limits (+ driving licence entitlement), then they consider no offence has been committed. This ignores totaling up the MAM as shown on the vehicles/trailers plates.

The club member who did this research even got as far as a letter from the DVSA confirming this.

Inspite of already having the necessary driving entitlement, I had to take my employers trailer training & assesment several years ago. The instructor confirmed for me again that the above interpretation was correct.

HTH
Dormy

[w3526602]

Hi,

During a previous life, I would receive reports of HGV "tractor units" being driven on UK roads displaying PLG tax discs.  The driver's excuse (acceptable then, maybe still?) was that he only pulled trailers on main-land Europe, and at the time of the alleged offence, the tractor unit was his personal transport while he came home to visit the wife and kids, and should be VED'd like any other car.

Things may be different now.

602

[PuG]

Thanks again for the replies.

I'm trying to get the trailer home, so it will be unloaded apart from possibly an Series engine lumped in the back later on. Its a horse box, I don't intend to put anything heavy inside, its for us to convert into a market stall for selling our meat (so one 80kg fridge unit) and some new paint.

As for the trailer test I've tried twice in the past, with lessons etc and eventually ran out of money and time. Failed on both occasions and not to do with trailer towing but general driving mistakes (however all trivial!) - I took three attempts on my driving test in the first place. I'm just rubbish when it comes to actual testing and the instructor told me there's nothing wrong and more they can do, I spend all day, nearly everyday driving tractors with big trailers and short draw bar rollers all around narrow sheds and steep land, and most of our gate posts and walls are still upright.. anyway if my fiance can get the license then at least I could drive the trailer provisionally with her beside.

This is the problem - if you follow the gov website with the link I provided it clearly states if the vehicle and trailer combined maximum authorized mass exceeds 3.5 tons then you shouldn't be towing the trailer. Then the secondary regulation, that the MAM of the trailer must not exceeds the kerb weight of the vehicle without having a B + E license.

You can still re-plate yourself. The manufacture requirement so I read is only an "advisement" that's then been embellished into law by the keyboard warriors?

Boiling it down to Dormy,

There were several of these threads on the old forum. What I do recall regarding total MAM was that DVSA as the enforcing authority would only take into account the actual weights as measured at the roadside.

As long as neither the vehicle or trailer were individually overloaded and the actual weight was within the vehicles towing limits (+ driving licence entitlement), then they consider no offence has been committed. This ignores totaling up the MAM as shown on the vehicles/trailers plates.

The club member who did this research even got as far as a letter from the DVSA confirming this.

This was how I always believed it worked, which goes to figure as common sense. That as long as your car and trailer combined, physical weight, did not breach 3.5 tons on the road than you should be fine. Its irrelevant that the MAM exceeds these figures.

Beyond that website link I cannot find any driving regulations online.

Yes its my fault, I bought it assuming the above, not the MAM restrictions..

[w3526602]

Its irrelevant that the MAM exceeds these figures.

Hi PuG,

I agree that make sense... but ...but ... take the JENSEN lorry (Google), which was built out of aluminium to beat some historic weight/speed regulation (possibly the 1940s 20mph speed limit ... does anybody remember the 20mph plates on the back of lorries?)

Would us Plebs be allowed to drive it laden? Or even unladed.

602

[w3526602]

Hi,

Google says that the Jensen lorry has an ULW below 3 tons, but a quick shufti revealed nothing more.  Anybody???

602 (who has yearned for a 541 since the early 1960s)

[w3526602]

Hi,

Google also reveals that an unladen Bedford SL 4x2 weighs 4.5 tons.

602

[Old Hywel]

As I understand it, if you get ‘pulled by the Ministry’ they are only concerned with actual weight.
Driving licence entitlement is a different matter.

[Peter Holden]

It may be best to have a telephone conversation with someone at DVSA (if open) and thenask for confirmation by email so that you have solid evidence.  we can all inerpret the rules but it is their interpretation that counts.

Peter