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[canadianeh]

Apologies for this VERY basic question, but I have no shame.

So I've only learned to drive a manual vehicle this past week and the double-clutch process. The first day wasn't so bad, but a few days later it's MUCH smoother, not as many scary noises.

What I'm not overly clear on is the Downshift process?

Gear 1 to Gear 2 - Clutch to Neutral, Quickly Release, Clutch to Second
Gear 2 to Gear 3 - Clutch to Neutral, Quickly Release, Clutch to Third  - Do I need double here?
Gear 3 to Gear 4 - Normal Clutch in move to fourth

Downshift
Gear 4 to Gear 3 - Normal Clutch in, move to 3rd
Gear 3 to Gear 2 - This is where I'm not getting it. Trying to go to second gives me a bad crunch/grind.

When I'm in 4th and coming down the highway, I need to slow down and turn. I'm downshifting to 3rd... Then what?

Thanks

[w3526602]

Hi ... er ... what's generic for Canadian?

Once you have got used to double-declutching, you won't do it any other way  ... until you get "cocky", and start to do "racing changes", where you only dip the clutch half way to go into neutral, and push the pedal further to go into the next gear ... at least I think that's what I do ... it all happens so fast. My feet seem to know what to do, without me telling them. Many a time, I've been accelerating out of a roundabout ... wondering when I changed down. 

If you are driving an S2, double-declutch into 1st and 2nd. You shoudn't need to double-declutch into 3rd and 4th, but you'll soon find yourself doing it anyway, without thinking about it.

Most modern "four-on-the-floor cars have syncho on all four five gears, but once you've learned to double-declutch, it will feel wrong to do it any other way.

Just wait till you can change gear without the clutch ....

602

[Dormy]

First of all let's just clarify; As said by 602 ^^^^ you do not need to double-clutch when changing into 3rd or 4th gear at all. These gears both have synchromesh which does the work for you. So: -
Changes from 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th can be done with one press of the clutch each.
Likewise changing from 4th to 3rd only needs the clutch held down until the change is complete, even coming to a corner.

Now, 1st and 2nd do not have synchromesh so do need a double-clutch in both directions.
Changing from 1st to 2nd is just as you have detailed - correct, well done.
Changing from 3rd to 2nd or from 2nd to 1st (yes, you will need to sometimes) requires the following technique: -
Clutch to Neutral, Quickly Release, Blip Throttle, Clutch to 2nd (or 1st).

With practice you should find yourself able to give the throttle a blip at the same time that you release the clutch pedal. It all becomes a quicker and smoother action. The faster your L/R is traveling, the more revs. required as you blip the throttle (give it more gas).

One final tip; When engaging 1st/2nd at a standstill, sometimes the gearbox keeps spinning a bit after you have pressed the clutch and it crunches a fair bit before engagement. The simple solution here is to press and hold the clutch, pop the gearstick into 3rd then quickly into 1st (or 2nd). 3rd gear synchromesh will stop the gearbox spinning and let you engage 1st/2nd without crunching.

HTH
Dormy

[w3526602]

One final tip; when engaging 1st/2nd at a standstill, sometimes the gearbox keeps spinning a bit after you have pressed the clutch and it crunches a fair bit before engagement. The simple solution here is to press and hold the clutch, pop the gearstick into 3rd then quickly into 1st (or 2nd). 3rd gear synchromesh will stop the gearbox spinning and let you engage 1st/2nd without crunching.

Hi Dormy,

I agree!

Spinning clutch plate? Rite of Passage!

602

[Formerlyjeremy]

I'd just say that when moving off I try and slip the thing into 2nd when its just rolling - which avoids having to slow the internals.  If I forget - I'll go straight to 3rd from 1st.

[w3526602]

If I forget - I'll go straight to 3rd from 1st.

Hi FJ,

I won't criticise that ... you know what your doing, have thought about doing it ... and your car will take it (many cars won't. Other cars will pull away in third, or even top gear without protesting).

When I was just out of short trousers, cars had one gear for climbing cliffs, and two or three for coming down again. I used to start off in 1st on a three speed box, and 2nd in a four speed box ... until a RAF driving instructor declared that if my truck had a 1st gear, I was duty bound to use it.

Slipping the clutch will wear it out, and I doubt the gearbox will thank you.

I'm guessing that most modern cars can hit 30mph in 1st gear, so there is no reason not to use it. Barbara's CRX would do 40, 70, 100 thru the gears. I never found out what it would do in 4th and 5th, but it never dropped below 40mpg.

602

[Betsy1969]

One final tip; When engaging 1st/2nd at a standstill, sometimes the gearbox keeps spinning a bit after you have pressed the clutch and it crunches a fair bit before engagement. The simple solution here is to press and hold the clutch, pop the gearstick into 3rd then quickly into 1st (or 2nd). 3rd gear synchromesh will stop the gearbox spinning and let you engage 1st/2nd without crunching.

Above quote from Dormy

That’s a good tip , I had a rather embarrassing moment at a busy crossroads the other day when that happened to me , took three attempts of crunching before it went in !

That’ll teach me to feel smug about having previously descended a local very steep hill without incident 😀

[Dentman]

You may be used to slamming into second for a corner at say 20 mph, with that IIA box you also need to be down to a walking pace for a crunch free downshift.

[martinrh]

As FormallyJeremy says, I avoid double de-clutching on upshifts almost every time by just engaging second fairly early.
If for some reason I can't I normally fail at a smooth ddc so will try the direct to third trick.

Good tip from Dormy on engaging first at standstill.

[Wittsend]

I very rarely start in 1st from a standstill. I use 2nd to start off, only using 1st if on a steepish hill or towing.

When driving along rarely need 2nd when rolling along, maybe changing down into 2nd when face with a steep hill.

Rolling up to traffic lights at red in 4th or maybe 3rd - stop and then do as Dormy, slip into 3rd to get the cogs lined up (on the red/yellow signal) and into 2nd when the light goes green.

On thing to bare in mind is that you can't rush the box - take your time with the gear changes, it's not like a modern car.
You'll soon get use to it and be doing smooth, crunch-free changes.




 

[andrewR]

Yeah I'm liking that tip about getting 1st engaged quicker at the lights by "tapping" on 3rd. Its mostly a problem when on a long drive and all the gearboxes are nice and warm and the oil is thin. You stop at the lights and then everybody behind you is wondering what the heck you're waiting for when the lights go green... I'm waiting 10 seconds for my gears to stop before I dare put it in 1st. The worst case is if you have a carb problem (blocked idle jet etc) and have to increase the idle revs to stop it stalling. Then you have a perfect storm. That 3rd gear top-tip will be handy. I never thought of that!

I had my vehicle since 1988 and I still don't like making the 2nd-1st shift under power on a steep hill. It's done so rarely that I don't build up the feel for exactly what revs to hit, and it's so dependent on the gradient and how much the vehicle slows at the same time while you make the shift.

I find myself double-declutching our 2-year-old family car. People think you're weird, but the box loves you for it. White van diesels and bigger wagons, it's definitely the way to go.

[Formerlyjeremy]

Another nice feature of the non-all synchro box is that you can pass your time in slow moving traffic queues practicing double-declutching, even into low ratio.  You can of course practice on your modern car as well - when you get it right the thing just seems to leap into gear.

Next step - clutchless changes?  - can be done!

[Wittsend]

When stuck in a really big/long traffic jam that just crawls along at walking pace then stops for ages and then moves off again (accident on the M25 or roadworks on the A66) - using low box eases the strain on your clutch foot. You can pootle along in say low box 2nd (or 3rd).

Changing gear without the clutch is no bad thing to practice.

And driving in 4th only when the layshaft breaks is another driving technique.

Depending on distance and circumstances you can often "self recover" home.


 

[Ndrwdz]

And driving in 4th only when the layshaft breaks is another driving technique.

Don't forget Michael Schumacher in the 1994 Spanish Grand Prix when he had only 5th gear for almost all the race.
He completed the race - coming second to Damon Hill - including having to make a pitstop and get away in 5th gear.

Andrew

[andrewR]

I once (in the 90's) drove ~250 miles in 3rd and 4th only (I think 3rd still worked), when my layshaft broke on a sunday evening (those sticky-out bits that hold 1st/2nd gear in place, so it floated off down towards reverse).

using low box eases the strain on your clutch foot

but really annoys people behind you if you leave it idling in low-range 1st, and everybody else has to stop-start or slip their clutches behind you!