S2C Forum Archives

Advanced search  

News:

  Our new forum is open for business:-  New Forum
To use the new forum you will need to re-register.

Please don't post anything on this forum.

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: 602 Regrouping  (Read 2780 times)

w3526602

  • S2C Member
  • Lord of the Bearings
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Location: Milton Keynes
  • Posts: 5617
  • Member no : 3779
  • .:
602 Regrouping
« on: July 22, 2020, 07:29:27 AM »

Hi,

I'm guessing that most of you now know that "Yesterday's Plans" have been abandoned, by mutual agreement. I think we are still friends. 

So I'm now looking for something similar, preferably an S2, with an S3 being at the bottom of the list, and mixed feelings about an S1.

Basically, I want a rolling shell (Why pay for the filler when the holes are free? Sorry, wrong marque!)  I've already done two new chassis S1 rebuilds, plus one on an old S3 chassis, plus an S2 109" on a new chassis. In wont mention the Austin Champ into which I dropped a BMC 2.2 diesel engine. Fabricating an S1 (sort of lookalike) bulkhead is neither difficult nor dramatically expensive. S2 and S3 are much more complicated.

I have just this moment thought about an S2 rolling chassis, another of my lookalike S1 bulkheads, but S2 or S3 front wings set in 2",  bonnet and... doh  ... radiator panel would be too wide, unless I narrowed it, which I think would be look wrong. ....Narrow the front wings? Is it possible to drill out the spot welds, and move the inner wings out a couple of inches, and trim?  Doh! ... back to the drawing board. A couple of ideas are sneaking into the back of my mind.  More anon.

In the meantime, I want your junk rolling, probably engineless, abandoned project, or whatever, provided it has wheels and steering (so it can be pushed) at least some body panels,  a registratiom document, and not too far from Milton Keynes. Oh .. and it will be a SWB.

602
Logged

w3526602

  • S2C Member
  • Lord of the Bearings
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Location: Milton Keynes
  • Posts: 5617
  • Member no : 3779
  • .:
Re: 602 Regrouping
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2020, 08:26:49 PM »

Hi Alan,

Judging by recent mails, there seem to be two hymn sheets on the go ... VED EXEMPTION and MOT EXEMPTION.

I am not scared of MOTs, other than rust ... so my plan is to make sure there isn't any rust. I think I've already mention my Triumph Herald that failed an MOT due to a finger sized hole in the boot floor. "Separate body!" I squawked. "Wrong!" said the malevolent tester, "Some body has welded the boot floor the the rear outrigger!" :thud

Plan A (1) Is that I fit a different smaller engine. In words of one syllable .. which wallet will that hit .. MOT .. VED.
We have previously discussed the engines liability to "breath testing" being dependent on the age of the engine.

Plan A (2) IF I can inveigle a way, of long tail shaft on the gearbox past the various chassis cross members, I WILL go automatic, and sacrifice a couple of points.

Plan A (3). I would like to fit an S3 steering column ... choice of steering wheels, and more modern switches and steering lock. I would also want to fit heavy duty track rod and drag links ... surely safety features?

Plan A (4) I intend to fit either 13" or 14" wheels ... arguably a safety feature ... stability and braking. Are there any problems with that.

Plan A (5)  The points system is ambiguous on axles. Does BOTH mean NIL points if you only use one original axle. Or do both axle earn you two points? Can I assume that nobody will complain if I disembowel the front axle?

Plan A (6) I'd like drop the suspension, to lose some more height. I wrote to somebody who advertises (they make) parabolic springs, asking if they can supply them with less canber. "No answer"! was the stern reply. I understand the the "off roaders" used to use Ford Transit springs. Better articulation. But can I prove it?

Plan B. All of the above, except I'd retain the Landy engine and gearbox ... which will benefit nobody.

602
Logged

Phil2014

  • Moderator
  • Gear shifter
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Location: Dumfries & Galloway
  • Posts: 364
  • Member no : 4721
  • .:
  • Borders area rep
Re: 602 Regrouping
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2020, 09:33:07 PM »

I could be completely wrong, but wouldn’t the whole points system thing only come into play if you have a vehicle with no paperwork and can’t accurately date it, surely if you have a v5 in your name you’re good to go?
Logged

Wittsend

  • Administrator
  • Lord of the Bearings
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Location: Norwich
  • Posts: I am a geek!!
  • .:
Re: 602 Regrouping
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2020, 09:56:45 PM »

Basically that's correct if the vehicle is already registered as a Vehicle of Historic Interest and in the system.

BUT ... if you start to radically modify the vehicle (see the DVLA website) you could hit problems.
It all depends on what is done - it could lose its tax exemption and have to go on a Q-plate or it could lose it's MoT exemption (if that were a problem).

What advantage would a Series 3 steering column give over a Series 2 other than a steering column lock ???
What advantage would heavy duty steering links give ???
The standard parts are perfectly suitable for normal road use.

By all means fit a front axle from a 4x2 model - but what advantage does that give ???
If you don't go off-road, just never engage 4x4.

These things are just over complicating your project, the aim of which is to make a low rider that sits lower to the road for easier passenger ingress.
Start messing around with the spring height or under mounting the axles and you are heading into modified vehicle territory.

And when all this is done - a detailed list of the modifications will have to be given to your insurers.
Logged
Who's a then ?
 

Phil2014

  • Moderator
  • Gear shifter
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Location: Dumfries & Galloway
  • Posts: 364
  • Member no : 4721
  • .:
  • Borders area rep
Re: 602 Regrouping
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2020, 10:02:34 PM »


Quote
And when all this is done - a detailed list of the modifications will have to be given to your insurers.
This is what would worry me, if you hand over a modification list to your insurer that looks like J.K.Rowling has written it, I would be fairly sure you will be presented with a nice premium to match  ???
Logged

w3526602

  • S2C Member
  • Lord of the Bearings
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Location: Milton Keynes
  • Posts: 5617
  • Member no : 3779
  • .:
Re: 602 ... with egg on his face.
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2020, 05:08:43 AM »

 :-[ :-[ :-[

Hi,

Apology time!  I thought I knew the rules, but we all know what Thought did. *

Today, (it's not yet 5AM) I found out what Wittsend was on about ...

... as of 20th of May 2018, the MOT Exemption rules became more draconion, and YES, changing the engine becomes MOT-able.  How did I miss that? Not a problem, but inconvenient ... no chance to do a trial run before presenting my project for an MOT. But I think I can live with that.  I believe everything I intend doing will make the truck safer ... stability and braking, hopefully more economical (of no great importance with our annual mileage) or maybe not with an auto gearbox). However, it should fit through my garage door. (70" clearance)

Does road testing count as Preparing for an MOT

How is this affecting our members who have converted to modern diesels?

I took a quick shufti through Google, and as far as I can see, I will still be VED exempt ... unless Alan knows different?

602

PS.  * What did Mister Thought do? He thought he had ... but he hadn't!

PPS. A neighbour is paying £600pa for VED on his RAV
Logged

Genem

  • Moderator
  • Lord of the Bearings
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Location: Perthshire
  • Posts: 3280
  • Member no : 4186
  • .:
Re: 602 Regrouping
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2020, 10:27:25 AM »

John, work your way through the flow chart we prepared in relation to MOT exemption, its the Clubs interpretation of guidance that is at best Woolly". Click on the picture below and it should display "full size".

The short answer is that Landrover engines of the period, other conversions "of a type" that were done at the time and engines developed from the engines of the time are "OK".  3 years on and no-one in officialdom has challeneged that interpretation.

The question is how wild are you planning to get. Do I recall mention of fitting a Cortina engine or was that just the smaller wheels ?

Eye on the prize: A vehicle that is low enough to allow your wife easier access. Any other mods that don't have a direct bearing on that outcome are just making life difficult.   

Logged
I'm not totally daft, some bits are missing

Paul4978

  • S2C Member
  • Gear shifter
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Location: Brecon Beacons
  • Posts: 308
  • Member no : 6908
  • .:
Re: 602 Regrouping
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2020, 10:41:15 AM »

Have you considered a Mini Moke?
Don't know if they have achieved historic status.
Or is the prime objective LR based?

Logged

Paul4978

  • S2C Member
  • Gear shifter
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Location: Brecon Beacons
  • Posts: 308
  • Member no : 6908
  • .:
Re: 602 Regrouping
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2020, 10:47:39 AM »

Oh......
Just seen some prices
Logged

Simon K.

  • S2C Member
  • Hub seal tester
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Location: Warwickshire
  • Posts: 184
  • Member no : 2721
  • .:
Re: 602 Regrouping
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2020, 12:06:28 PM »

Don't bother with heavy duty steering rods, in an accident they wont bend, and just transfer the damaging force to another part such as the chassis leg.
Standard rods are plenty strong enough, but will help by absorbing the force of a collision and bending where the offending vehicle hits the front corner.
Simon.
Logged

agg221

  • Moderator
  • Swivel King
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Location: Essex
  • Posts: 1566
Re: 602 Regrouping
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2020, 12:29:14 PM »

The short answer is that Landrover engines of the period, other conversions "of a type" that were done at the time and engines developed from the engines of the time are "OK".  3 years on and no-one in officialdom has challeneged that interpretation.

Eye on the prize: A vehicle that is low enough to allow your wife easier access. Any other mods that don't have a direct bearing on that outcome are just making life difficult.

^^^This is the critical point.

The magic word in the interpretation is 'type'. I am not an expert here, but it appears that the interpretation of the rules as written allows for replacements to be made using an equivalent available at a point in time. The Land Rover family of engines, through to the TDI, is essentially the current equivalent at any given point in time, ie if your engine blew up at a particular point, the then current model engine would be a reasonable replacement, which then makes that an acceptable change in the future. Also, because of the ease of conversion at certain, early, points in time, the Essex for example met a need and became an accepted option during the working life of vehicles, making it still acceptable.

Fitting a 1.3 Marina engine was never a historic conversion choice, so it is not an accepted type and if you do this now you instantly lose the MOT exempt status.

The bigger issue is with the chassis. There is quite a lot to be learned on this point from discussion around 1500 MG Midgets. As the gearing is generally rather low, there is a tendency to either fit a 5-speed K type Ford box, or an overdrive as originally fitted to the Spitfire which had the same engine. In either case, some adaptation is required to get it to fit in the gearbox tunnel, including cutting a drop-down section to the cross-brace (the Midget is mostly a monocoque with a couple of chassis-esque crossbraces). The general consensus is that technically, if you do this, you have modified the chassis, meaning you lose both the MOT exemption part and the historic status. There are a lot of vehicles floating about where this was done and the odds of being caught are small, but that doesn't mean you are the right side of things if it does get picked up. I doubt you would even pass a single vehicle inspection, at which point the vehicle cannot be made road legal without taking it back to original.

For a Series Land Rover, it appears to be accepted that a replacement chassis is acceptable from a range of options. These include alternative NOS designs which would have been an option, and correspondingly the use of a modern replica of any of these, or a modern, simplified generic chassis which does not necessarily have all the original detailing. What it appears you cannot do is cut bits off of this chassis. Technically, this includes retro-fitting a detachable gearbox crossmember (although the fact that a chassis with such a feature was a practical option at a point in time means you can use a new chassis which has one fitted) or cutting off the old engine mounts. What it appears you can do is add additional engine mounts or other additional features - welding additional bits on appears to be acceptable in general. What you also cannot do is design a new, custom chassis which is not of original type, although where precisely the line would be drawn on that is debatable - for example, adding drain holes for galvanising or to inject waxoyl into the chassis and allow water to drain out appears to fall one side, whereas moving outriggers around or specifying different engine mounts appears to fall the other side.

British law works on precedent - the way the rules would be tested is that the enforcing body would interpret one way, the person who has done something to a different interpretation would fail to comply, there would be a court case and the judge would listen to the evidence and make a ruling which would then stand for future reference. It is likely that nobody has tested the finer points of some of what constitutes 'original' for a chassis yet. Personally, I would not want to be the one to test it as I have better things to do, would not want to wait as long as it would take to get through the court case (could take years with the current backlog generated by COVID) and would not want to spend that much money just to find out. However, each to their own.

Alec
Logged

Wittsend

  • Administrator
  • Lord of the Bearings
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Location: Norwich
  • Posts: I am a geek!!
  • .:
Re: 602 Regrouping
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2020, 12:48:19 PM »

.... to say nothing of the stress of a court case (these things can take ages to progress and even longer if you appeal) and the financial loss, even if you won your case.

The chances of a road-side inspection are very slim.

 :-\
However, the police and VOSA would instantly notice a "low rider" Land Rover bodied "something" and pull it over.
If the DVLA and HMG Customs get a whiff of tax evasion they'll be on the case like a ton of bricks. They don't like people evading road tax and the result is often the destruction of the vehicle in question.

Of course, you have to weigh up the chances of being caught.
You might be a totally innocent party in a road accident incident and it would only take one inquisitive cop or vehicle inspector to have a nose around the wreckage.
The odd bracket here or there - they miss, but something looking out of the ordinary is likely to attract attention.

If this were my situation, I'd be looking for another solution, a different vehicle.
This is my best advice.
 

I think we're back to: "Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it's a good idea to do it."
Logged

agg221

  • Moderator
  • Swivel King
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Location: Essex
  • Posts: 1566
Re: 602 Regrouping
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2020, 01:43:18 PM »

.... to say nothing of the stress of a court case (these things can take ages to progress and even longer if you appeal) and the financial loss, even if you won your case.

The chances of a road-side inspection are very slim.

 :-\
However, the police and VOSA would instantly notice a "low rider" Land Rover bodied "something" and pull it over.
If the DVLA and HMG Customs get a whiff of tax evasion they'll be on the case like a ton of bricks. They don't like people evading road tax and the result is often the destruction of the vehicle in question.

Of course, you have to weigh up the chances of being caught.
You might be a totally innocent party in a road accident incident and it would only take one inquisitive cop or vehicle inspector to have a nose around the wreckage.
The odd bracket here or there - they miss, but something looking out of the ordinary is likely to attract attention.

If this were my situation, I'd be looking for another solution, a different vehicle.
This is my best advice.
 

I think we're back to: "Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it's a good idea to do it."

I think as per Gene's comment, if you focus on priorities, a lowered vehicle is what really matters. All you need for this is to change the springs and wheels so if you stick with parabolics of a lower camber, you have the whole thing done on an otherwise standard vehicle.

I thought this was an interesting starting point:

auction: #324239435286

 The various things 'wrong' with it notwithstanding, it has many of the features from the wishlist (with the proviso that it turns out to be OK when inspected). It is already on a galvanised chassis; it is already automatic; it already has a roll bar in place which, if on inspection it proves suitable, would allow easy access seatbelts to be fitted. The vehicle has already been substantially changed so it isn't going to upset any purists to do more to it.

I see no advantage to heavy duty steering rods for on-road use and also no advantage to removing the front diff, but if you really wanted to you could disconnect the prop shaft. I am not really sure of the advantage of the S3 column. However, fitting an aftermarket power steering kit should be possible. Fitting small wheels and low camber springs should be straightforward. You would be on the road immediately without too many question marks.

The only down side is that the engine will be thirstier than you plan. That said, do you really do enough annual miles for that to matter? Petrol is around £4.30/gallon, assume a thirsty engine gives you 20miles to the gallon, that is 21.5p/mile. A 1300 Marina engine has a book fuel economy of 34mpg, so the annual saving would be £130 per thousand miles. You then need to offset the initial cost of purchase and fitting (the engine you are looking for is up on Ebay at the moment for £750; full recon would be around £1500 at best, custom adaptors etc. will be another £1000 or more). Your fuel vs. installation costs will offset at somewhere around the 30,000 mile mark - how long will that take to reach?

Alec

Logged

Wittsend

  • Administrator
  • Lord of the Bearings
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Location: Norwich
  • Posts: I am a geek!!
  • .:
Re: 602 Regrouping
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2020, 02:30:20 PM »

The question is: "How low does it have to be to enable Barbara to clamber on board ?"

As a starting point ... from the ground up to the floor on my LWT is 22"
Then from the floor it's 14" to the seat.
The LWT is on standard rims with 6.50 tyres and standard springs.
There is 8" ground clearance under the diff(s).

10" SWB brake drum on back plate is 11.5" diameter, so you need a wheel with a dish/well of at least that so the wheel doesn't foul on the brake drum.

You need to take your own measurements, but I don't think you are going to save that many inches running (if you can) by running on Vauxhall Corsa wheels   :shakeinghead

Have you thought about some sort of air suspension ???
Buses can "kneel down" at bus stops to allow the elderly etc. an easier step on board.
???
Logged

agg221

  • Moderator
  • Swivel King
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Location: Essex
  • Posts: 1566
Re: 602 Regrouping
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2020, 02:53:45 PM »

The question is: "How low does it have to be to enable Barbara to clamber on board ?"

As a starting point ... from the ground up to the floor on my LWT is 22"
Then from the floor it's 14" to the seat.
The LWT is on standard rims with 6.50 tyres and standard springs.
There is 8" ground clearance under the diff(s).

Have you thought about some sort of air suspension ???
Buses can "kneel down" at bus stops to allow the elderly etc. an easier step on board.
???

Assuming you need 4" ground clearance (I would have thought more, but if you take it carefully over speed humps you could probably live with this) the most you can lower the ride height by on a fixed configuration is 4". Is that enough?

I suggested air suspension early on in this concept - very established in the custom car world and does not fundamentally change the suspension as you fit it in conjunction with the current springs so I think you should be able to keep the points. If you keep chassis, axles and suspension you will retain enough points but the V8 would also appear to be a legitimate engine and hence you could potentially keep (just) enough points even if the suspension does not apply. The first thing you would hit in standard configuration would be either the diff on the tub floor or the axle on the chassis rail. It should still be good for quite a few inches and would be within the abilities of hotrod builders to configure for you.

Alec
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.047 seconds with 19 queries.