S2C Forum Archives
Main Section => Welcome to our virtual Pub Meeting ... => Topic started by: Rob_W on June 22, 2022, 09:14:16 AM
-
Not suggesting it's worth doing at present, but the price has dropped from semi-detached house territory to large Eurobox.
https://www.theengineer.co.uk/content/news/electrogenic-reveals-drop-in-kit-to-electrify-land-rover-defenders
As we start to get more battery suppliers & different chemistry I suspect it'll further reduce. The bit I don't get is why put all the batteries under the bonnet when there's a load of space under the driver & passenger seats? Unless it's for when they catch fire?
-
will be interesting to see if prices on these do drop enough for DIY users to have a go :RHD
maybe ease of maintainence for under the bonnet, they still do need checking on
though i reckon if you fit heavy duty springs, you could squash some under the tub floor as well, with supports on the chassis rails maybe ???
-
In the case of this build, it's simply a cost-saving measure in order to make a drop-in kit. The more expensive, custom builders generally distribute more evenly/sensibly.
-
Whilst I understand the reasons for replacing the I C E with something cleaner, I have no interest in electric vehicles, they quite simply leave me cold.
Vast opencast lithium mining is damaging the environment and then there is the question of dealing with the mountain of old lithium/toxic batteries :shakeinghead
From the little I know about it, the future will be hydrogen.
-
Good Evening All,
Are you suggesting that there is nothing environmentally damaging about oil extraction, transport, refining, more transport and then usage??
There are already, admittedly, medium scale, lithium ion processing plants - https://resource.co/article/ion-prize-how-recycle-lithium-batteries-12630 (ftp://resource.co/article/ion-prize-how-recycle-lithium-batteries-12630)
The oil industry is talking 'up' hydrogen (the principal method of production, currently, involves burning oil......) but there is no way it makes any environmental sense. Yes excess wind/ solar energy can be used to generate it but we are a long way away from that. I believe the existing gas network can manage a 15% hydrogen mix??????
Regards
Richard
-
I think getting away from hydrogen fuel provided by big business is a better use of my hard-earned. Decentralize energy!
The path to hydrogen future?; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuxQLEDccsU
-
I have become aware of a young team who are looking into this. A chance meeting with a retired OEM engineer who is helping these guys asked me ……”well'……How much would I be prepared to pay for a kit and or a turnkey job. Really hard to price this.
Any opinions on price I can pass on?
-
I have become aware of a young team who are looking into this. A chance meeting with a retired OEM engineer who is helping these guys asked me ……”well'……How much would I be prepared to pay for a kit and or a turnkey job. Really hard to price this.
Any opinions on price I can pass on?
A hell of a lot less than 24 grand for sure - wonder how they came up with the figure of saving 6 a year. For me I’d say it could just about be worth double the price of an engine swap or rebuild (although I’d probably just go petrol at that). Honestly can’t imagine much of a market at the price they are
The really interesting work right now is synthetic petrol - looks like they can use electricity to take carbon from the atmosphere and make petrol that will run in standard engines. Using solar power it’s almost carbon free petrol. A number of motorbike manufacturers are working together on it. Won’t make the same money for car companies and politicians but makes a lot more sense if we can continue to use existing vehicles and infrastructure we already have.
-
Are you suggesting that there is nothing environmentally damaging about oil extraction, transport, refining, more transport and then usage??
Hi Richard, of course I am not suggesting that!! I started my post by saying I understand the reasons for replacing the I C E with something cleaner. Where in my comment do I suggest there is nothing environmentally damaging about oil extraction, transport, refining, more transport and then usage??
My question is, why replace something dirty with something equally dirty, albeit dirty in a different way.
JCB are already advertising their new generation hydrogen fuelled heavy machinery. Hydrogen energy isn't a myth, it`s out there now. It just needs time to fully develop and scale up.
Regrettably we`ve jumped on the electric battery bandwagon because it was the first one to turn up. Typical of government short termism policy to appease the Green lobby. Am I being cynical to suggest it`s to attract voters.
The following article was copied from the Industry Week Magazine.
"Lithium Batteries' Dirty Secret: Manufacturing Them Leaves Massive Carbon Footprint
Oct. 16, 2018
Once in operation, electric cars certainly reduce your carbon footprint, but making the lithium-ion batteries could emit 74% more CO2 than for conventional cars.
Bloomberg
"We're facing a bow wave of additional CO2 emissions," said Andreas Radics, a managing partner at Munich-based automotive consultancy Berylls Strategy Advisors, which argues that for now, drivers in Germany or Poland may still be better off with an efficient diesel engine.
The findings, among the more bearish ones around, show that while electric cars are emission-free on the road, they still discharge a lot of the carbon-dioxide that conventional cars do.
Just to build each car battery—weighing upwards of 500 kilograms (1,100 pounds) in size for sport-utility vehicles—would emit up to 74% more C02 than producing an efficient conventional car if it's made in a factory powered by fossil fuels in a place like Germany, according to Berylls' findings.
Yet regulators haven't set out clear guidelines on acceptable carbon emissions over the life cycle of electric cars, even as the likes of China, France and the U.K. move toward outright bans of combustion engines.
"It will come down to where is the battery made, how is it made, and even where do we get our electric power from," said Henrik Fisker, chief executive officer and chairman of Fisker Inc., a California-based developer of electric vehicles.
For perspective, the average German car owner could drive a gas-guzzling vehicle for three and a half years, or more than 50,000 kilometers, before a Nissan Leaf with a 30 kWh battery would beat it on carbon-dioxide emissions in a coal-heavy country, Berylls estimates show."
Of course I realize another article in another magazine might give an opposing view but the above article has been written by professional industry specialists.
Fred
-
I think there might be some value in making sure the battery management system one uses can also be tapped into to feed the house 230v either time shifting cheap electricity or plug in into a PV array during the day. Very subjective but as the price comes down these additional benefits start to become accessible
Still a lot of money at £24,000 plus vat…too much……
Fuel pricing and availability will also come into play. I think I was,forced into paying £1.92 a litre the other day so I am looking for options. An old Nissan Leaf. BMW i3 prices have bottomed out and are around £13,000 ….plus:or minus.
Anyway good thread. Thanks to the original poster for posting
-
Difficult to price, not least as we can't see how long the batteries and/or petrol will last. There are also too many extra bits of technology that are 5-10 years out at present. Not least fuel cells: keep the electic motor but smaller battery and add a hydrogen store.
If I lived in London & it was congestion charge exempt it's an easier swap: at 2-300 miles annually around Sheffield & The Peak at present it's not worth it.
Re the CO2 capture & fuel manufacturing. The idea (I think) is to capture CO2 from the air but use it to make a stored fuel for generating electric when it's dark/calm then capture & recycle. Extra spare capacity can then capture more CO2. Economics and engineering are still evolving.
-
Hi,
Speaking from ignorance, as I understand it, batteries that can endure "deep discharge" are the problem. But is it MY problem? I cannot remember when I last did more than about 12 miles in a day (Go to collect my daughter in the morning, take her home in the evening ... 4 x 3 mile journeys.) It must be at least two years since we visited friends in Wales. My sister and her husband visit us, from Dulwich, using some sort of pensioners railway ticket.
The car manufacturers seem to feel required to provide transport for every requirement, all built into one vehicle, when maybe 90% of the time, they could be served by a battery powered Dornier/Heinkel bubble car. Can our younger readers remember those, ... or the sporty Meschersmitts (Spell?), which pretended to be the cockpit from a WW2 fighter, on three wheelbarrow wheels, with handle bar steering? They filled a niche in the 1950s market.
Nowadays it would be a quad-bike with a roof.
Circa mid 1980s, one of the Hot Car magazines featured a Triumph Herald, loaded with batteries, that was used for the owners daily commute. I have to assume that it used regular car starter batteries, but was never put into a deep discharge situation. I have no recollection of what motor was used, but currently, a 40HP canal boat engine (tiny), with what looks like a flange that will bolt up to a normal Hardy Spicer U/J, can be found on the web for about £5,000. I have not yet found details of control units, nor batteries.
Can I assume that four Land Rover diesel starter batteries (giving a nominal 48 volts) at £100 each when I had to buy a battery to start my Disco, will get most of us into town and back?
How many of us still go for a Sunday afternoon spin in the country? I used to drive from Croydon to Heathrow Airport, (30 miles) in the wee hours, because the airport cafe was still open. Not any more I don't.
602
-
Hi,
Speaking from ignorance, as I understand it, batteries that can endure "deep discharge" are the problem. But is it MY problem? I cannot remember when I last did more than about 12 miles in a day (Go to collect my daughter in the morning, take her home in the evening ... 4 x 3 mile journeys.) It must be at least two years since we visited friends in Wales. My sister and her husband visit us, from Dulwich, using some sort of pensioners railway ticket.
The car manufacturers seem to feel required to provide transport for every requirement, all built into one vehicle, when maybe 90% of the time, they could be served by a battery powered Dornier/Heinkel bubble car. Can our younger readers remember those, ... or the sporty Meschersmitts (Spell?), which pretended to be the cockpit from a WW2 fighter, on three wheelbarrow wheels, with handle bar steering? They filled a niche in the 1950s market. Nowadays it would be a quad-bike with a roof.
Circa mid 1980s, one of the Hot Car magazines featured a Triumph Herald, loaded with batteries, that was used for the owners daily commute. I have to assume that it used regular car starter batteries, but which were never put into a deep discharge situation. I have no recollection of what motor was used, but currently, a 40HP canal boat engine (tiny), with what looks like a flange that will bolt up to a normal Hardy Spicer U/J, can be found on the web for about £5,000. I have not yet found details of control units, nor proper batteries.
Can I assume that four Land Rover diesel starter batteries (giving a nominal 48 volts) at £100 each when I had to buy a battery to start my Disco, will get most of us into town and back?
How many of us still go for a Sunday afternoon spin in the country? I used to drive from Croydon to Heathrow Airport, (30 miles) in the wee hours, because the airport cafe was still open. Not any more I don't.
602
-
H,Ihave
Apologies for the double do-do.
Batteries catching fire? I've never met that, but twice I have had car batteries explode.
A forty horsepower electric motor for a canal boat is about £5,000, and from photos appears to be about the same size as a gearbox (without clutch and transfer box). I suggest a bit of avoirdupois will be needed over the front axle ... using the weight of the batteries would turn a liability into an asset.
602 type visions of trunk-roads with overhead power cables (like on European railways, as seen on cinema screens), and cars fitted with vertical pick-up contacts, like Dodgem cars. But in reality, I suspect that long car journeys will involve the cars being driven onto trains ... like the Chunnel.
I suggest that the motor car represents FREEDOM, and we all know what happens if you interfere with that.
602
-
602 - car batteries are lead-acid at present. The electric car batteries are lithium based, so if those go wrong it's messy. Different technology as they can hold a lot more electric.
Range is another point. Most trips are short, so 100-150 miles would do for a second car in many cases. It'd work as our main car for 7/8 of the month, then SWMBO wants to visit her parents. We won't get home without a recharge; we'd not even make it to my parents. Neither set have any way to fast charge to let us leave either. On street charging is a Govt problem as much as it is a user problem.
My 88" will be electric once the technology & economics settle down: it's already OK for the range. We're still in the "early adopter" stage so expect a few more years of rapid change before things start to level off. Assuming I can figure out where to stash the current 2.25 engine too.
-
I thought this video was quite interesting as EV vehicles commence life on the dealership floor with a larger carbon debt which evens out and then passes ICE vehicles later in life.
The speaker is of the opinion that the petrol hybrid is the winner under current technology/infrastructure.
I am sure Wittsend has said on more than one occasion that the PTO hole is perfect for an electric motor in place of the overdrive.
Maybe he is on the money!!
https://www.ted.com/talks/graham_conway_the_contradictions_of_battery_operated_vehicles
-
On a bit more of a look it seems the video above has been panned as propaganda of the Oil industry seeking to delay adoption. Looks like more homework for me. At least I know the difference between TED Talks and TEDx. :thud
-
On a bit more of a look it seems the video above has been panned as propaganda of the Oil industry seeking to delay adoption. Looks like more homework for me. At least I know the difference between TED Talks and TEDx. :thud
Both the oil industry and renewable industry are massive PR machines and spin a lot their own way. Believe none of what you hear and less than half of what you read as the old saying goes. There’s a lot of politics and twisting of statistics (I left working in renewable energy years ago as couldn’t cope with the behaviour of the companies who would say anything to get a sale and couldn’t care less what happened to the customer.
It’s virtually impossible to find an unbiased view on the subject of anything renewable or green so all I think you can do is go with gut instinct
-
^^^^^ Very true.
The Guardian newspaper, not known as being right wing, published this interesting article.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/20/electric-car-batteries-what-happens-to-them
-
Good Evening All,
Renault's original plan was to recycle UBG battery packs in domestic battery storage units but the plan sort of went off the rails when it became apparent that the batteries didn't deteriorate at the rate anticipated.
Using batteries for energy storage like this is a brilliant second use. It also allows more time for recycling at scale to develop.
The battery manufacturers are driving the percentage of lithium in batteries down (there is a Fully Charged episode about this) where they can and other technologies are in the pipeline.
I repeat ALL the talking up of hydrogen is driven by the FF industry, they are very powerful lobbyists and doing an awful lot to delay the arrival of any alternatives to hydrocarbons. I see they are now being likened to the tobacco giants in avoiding doing what they know is necessary to change! If the oil companies put the money they put in to developing new oil into alternatives we'd have found solutions a long time ago.
Regards
Richard
-
I thought this video was quite interesting as EV vehicles commence life on the dealership floor with a larger carbon debt which evens out and then passes ICE vehicles later in life.
The speaker is of the opinion that the petrol hybrid is the winner under current technology/infrastructure.
I am sure Wittsend has said on more than one occasion that the PTO hole is perfect for an electric motor in place of the overdrive.
Maybe he is on the money!!
https://www.ted.com/talks/graham_conway_the_contradictions_of_battery_operated_vehicles
Interesting idea. I wonder if it would be possible just to have an electric motor for the cruise or even just to aid it? ???
-
I’ve just read the article in CLR describing the battery powered S1. At a minimum of £20,000 (plus VAT) for the conversion, it is, to my mind, a major investment.
I’m puzzled as to what is the goal in such a major reworking. Working on the assumption that the most environmentally-friendly vehicle is the one you already own, I can’t see that the manufacture and installation of a complete new drivetrain is going to do much to save the planet.
My personal transport consists of two ageing TDI Passats, one for best and one for everyday. With a total mileage of well over 400 thousand miles, they’re both nicely run in, and fuel consumption is around 50MPG, depending on use.
I struggle to see how an electric vehicle (or conversion) could be better for the environment or my pocket.
-
I struggle to see how an electric vehicle (or conversion) could be better for the environment or my pocket.
Hi,
The planet has little interest in saving me, as an individual. The Government has little interest in me moving around the planet, other than as a function of productivity.
Perhaps I should retire to a mountain top in Wales, with a herd of Lamas ... economical meat, clothing, leather, milk, fertiliser, central heating, transport, company, etc. But a warning ... if you keep a "stallion", buy a dart gun.
Perhaps pigs and goats would be better for starters. It is possible to run an IC engine on pig zorst.
Er, at what price would it be viable to encourage the "Snip" as a means of population control? How many here have read "Ender's Game"?
602
-
Im enjoying this build :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6WhxN5IoPQ
-
Im enjoying this build :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6WhxN5IoPQ
Hadnt seen that, so thanks for the link! Something to have a look at tonight!
:cheers
-
This may be a question that all except me know the answer to :-[
but.. how much does the electricity cost to charge a series Land Rover sized car from flat to fully charged, asuming stadard rate tariff ???
-
Oil Stain - I have an EV Car - it has a 77KWH battery pack - If its flat it takes 77KWH to charge, 77 Kwh x Cost per KW on the tarriff you use to charge it up. So if you charge it up using solar energy = zero (But may take 10 hours to charge for example if you have a 7KWH charger) if you use some of the super and hyper chargers (If you can) then they charge .69p per KWH at that rate £53 to fully charge but in 18 minutes (they are 250 - 300 KWH chargers) you pay for speed as with al;l things automotive.
But different cars have different charging characteristics - battery sizes and charge speeds
Ian
-
None of the discussion above seems to suggest synthetic fuel yet Porsche and F1 are all making strides forward. It is not easy and needs solar or wind power to be truely beneficial. The Porsche development is quite exciting as they are committed to keeping the Porsche classics going if trhey can. https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/tech/porsche-synthetic-fuels/
Hydrogen does not seem to attract investment and business looks elsewhere. Battery / EV is a good stop gap.
Ian
-
Hi,
What happens to our atmosphere if millions of people collect hydrogen, and store it in their car's tanks. Will the then oxygen rich atmosphere burn up my body cells?
Will all the water (pure H2O) dripping out of car exhausts cause flooding along the M4?
I think I'm joking, but can you have too much of a good thing?
602 Who has pondered on windmill powered land yachts (which will work whichever way the wind is blowing) and trains that use gravity to coast down hill, and use river water to lift them back up to their original elevation, for the return journey. :stars Can anybody explain how a ram-pump works?
-
Here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFdyqTGx32A