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Main Section => Welcome to our virtual Pub Meeting ... => Topic started by: island dormy on December 23, 2021, 06:28:23 PM
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Hi
My 69 dormobile is getting ready to leave for the paint shop it is non running at this time. To get the rover up to the street to get it on to the flat bed tow truck it has to towed backwards up my steep curved driveway.
The tow truck driver thinks we should just hook onto the rear tow hitch and he will winch it up to the street then straighten it out and winch it on to the flat bed truck. This sounds reasonable to me (and I get to check how good my welding was on the replacement rear cross member).
My question is could I hand crank it up the hill in low range reverse? I have heard rumors of this being done, slow but steady?
Anybody done this?
Victor
Pic of the hill, this is when I got it here 3 years ago.
PS. All the brakes are functioning in case something goes horribly wrong.
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It will be slow and take a long time but yes, it can be done. Take the spark plugs out first to save yourself a lot of wasted effort. I loaded a non functioning 80" onto a home made trailer up 45 degree angled ramps after winding it some way up a steep driveway. Have someone on the brakes just in case.
David
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Yes it can be done.
Have you ever watched the film "Ice Cold in Alex" ???
Was shown on our telly last week :first
It will tell you what you need to do.
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??? ??? hmmm, could you hook an impact driver a modified crank handle? :dancing_santas
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??? ??? hmmm, could you hook an impact driver a modified crank handle? :dancing_santas
Back in 1980 when I was travelling around Australia the guys in the used car lots used chainsaw type motors with a starting handle attachment in place of the chain and bar. No use nowadays because nothing other than classic cars have hand cranking dogs fitted.
Have you ever watched the film "Ice Cold in Alex" ???
That film really annoys me. Why oh why did they let that woman have a go? It was obvious what was going to happen.
David
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Thanks
I think I will give it a try (rather than testing my welding.)
Guess I will have to check that movie out tonight, it sounds entertaining.
Thanks guys.
Victor
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Just get Sylvia Syms along to sit in the driver seat foot ready on the brake.
And watch out for the time shift Series 1 in Alexandria.
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It was a great film, even with a series one in shot at the end of the film, years before production :thud
edit ^^^ he beat me to it :shakeinghead
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By coincidence we bought the DVD just the other day. We were fed up with watching the film from part way through, usually the bit where they are cranking up the hill.
The interview with Sylvia Syms (on the bonus DVD) was enlightening, the look of fear on her face when she leaps out of the way and the truck rolls past her was not put on!
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Hi
My 69 dormobile is getting ready to leave for the paint shop it is non running at this time. To get the rover up to the street to get it on to the flat bed tow truck it has to towed backwards up my steep curved driveway.
The tow truck driver thinks we should just hook onto the rear tow hitch and he will winch it up to the street then straighten it out and winch it on to the flat bed truck. This sounds reasonable to me (and I get to check how good my welding was on the replacement rear cross member).
My question is could I hand crank it up the hill in low range reverse? I have heard rumors of this being done, slow but steady?
Anybody done this?
Victor
Pic of the hill, this is when I got it here 3 years ago.
PS. All the brakes are functioning in case something goes horribly wrong.
I reckon you will give up before you've done two yards. I also would drag a piece of wood placed in front of the front wheels and
tied to the front spring hangers, along.
.W.
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If you have the time and effort available, crack on but pulling a vehicle around the 2 ton mark up a short hill is bread & butter to the recovery truck people, its be done in minutes. A tad worried that you think your new crossmember might not cope ?? This might be the confidence builder you need ?
Good luck !
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Hi
I am fairly confident in the builder and his welding abilities, but seeing as the builder (me) is sadly putting on some holiday weight (and the holidays aren't over yet) it might be a excellent chance to get a real good work out?
Also how many people can say they have hand cranked a 2 ton vehicle of any kind up a hill. Backwards to boot. Not many I would bet...........well actually maybe none.
Maybe I will invite some friends over to get some exercise as well. Or at least walk beside ready to pull on the emergency brake.
Victor
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... Or at least walk beside ready to pull on the emergency brake. ...
Stopping a runaway is what biloxi was getting at when he suggested 'I also would drag a piece of wood placed in front of the front wheels and tied to the front spring hangers'.
This piece of wood should be of a large cross-section, say 6" minimum, and tied such that it is behind the front wheels going uphill, so that if the operator loses grip of the starting handle, and the vehicle starts downhill, the wood acts a chock, or sprag, against the tyres, to stop downhill movement. Enough slack has to be left in the rope to ensure the wood stays in place, and not so short that the wood just dragged forward in front of the wheels as the vehicle rolls downhill.
Of course, this sprag is in addition to the body of the operator being caught under the vehicle.
You do realise that if the operator pauses for breath, grip and pressure must be maintained on the handle to stop it spinning out of his hands as the vehicle starts to roll forward?
There is quite a personal risk involved.
The brownie points you are seeking to gain by hand cranking the vehicle backwards uphill will have to be earned; they don't come for free.
If you are going to have a walking emergency brake operator, the stop on the drivers door check should be disengaged and the door held fully open against the wing (fender), so the brake operator can easily and quickly access and operate the brake.
... A tad worried that you think your new cross-member might not cope ?? This might be the confidence builder you need ? ...
I share this concern. It terms of expected load in service, the pull will be quite low value.
Regards.
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Hi
I think can lean on the handle with all my excess Christmas holiday weight and hold it if I need a break.
The front door is off right now, it is at the painters so the walking emergency brake operator will have clear unimpeded access to the emergency brake, it is also the taller 69 style of hand brake so he (or she) will not have to bend over to far risking dropping his (or her ) beverage.
I'm going for it. I'm going to time it, I think I can do it in 10minutes32 seconds flat, from the spot in the picture to both wheels over the curb at the top.
Victor
PS. I am not to far from the local hospital if I blow a gasket.
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Also how many people can say they have hand cranked a 2 ton vehicle of any kind up a hill.
Hi,
I hand cranked my first Land Rover (1953 86" S1) up the steep drive, from the garage where it had stood for 11 years. I can remember removing the spark plugs first, and I know I devised a way of preventing it rolling backwards down the slop, but further than that, my mind is blank .... it was almost exactly 50 years ago.
I wish I had disconnected the fuel pips too. The car was parked with a full tank, which presumably had evaporated down to about a gallon of thick syrup, that had a vomit inducing smell. Throughout the time I owned that vehicle, I was plagued with fuel blockage problems.
I also hand cranked an S2 up onto a transporter trailer, that was itself standing on a tidy slope. I had disconnected the fuel pipe, as I was aware that the tank was full to the brim with rusty water ... looked unpleasantly like "baby exhaust", but didn't smell. I fitted a new tank, just in case.
I have a vague memory of "TOP GEAR" dragging a log behind a vehicle they were recovering, to prevent it rolling back if the rope broke. Unfortunately, I can't remember how (or which car) received the log through it's rear window.
602
PS. I recently used my Freelander to drag well-grown thorn bush roots out of my front hedge, using old seat-belts as tow ropes. The Freelander does not have a reduction gearbox, so I had to use momentum to get a decent tug.
The way that that the roots flew OVER the Freelander suggests that seat belts are elastic.
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I'd do it on the starter motor. In sections if cranking for ages. Maybe use a battery you're not too worried about. Or just let him drag it
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The starter motor thats a good idea, I remember driving my TR-6 200+ miles with no clutch (fluid leaked out)and if I had to stop at a light and shut the engine off, using the starter motor got it going again in second gear then it was back to shifting with no clutch. The starter motor might just do it in low range no problem. Its freshly rebuilt so might be a good test for it.
But I think I'm still going to try the hand crank thing. Maybe even video it.
Victor
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Also how many people can say they have hand cranked a 2 ton vehicle of any kind up a hill. Backwards to boot. Not many I would bet...........well actually maybe none.
I suspect there may be a good reason for this ^.
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It must be impossible with the spark plugs in, it’s hard enough trying to start it.
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I definitely will have to pull the plugs this is the high performance Nada engine with the Weslake head 8.8:1 compression ratio and the head got skimmed when I rebuilt it so its likely more in the range of 9:1.
I can barely turn it over with the plugs in.
Hi Exile You may be right.
Have a Merry Christmas everyone Ill post the results when available probably in a weeks time.
Victor
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A video of your efforts? Yes please!
Regarding a brake-man (highly recommended) he’d just as well sit comfortably in the driver’s seat, the extra weight won’t be noticeable.
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602 this is what you're after I think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aStGnWN-i9o
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Hi Old Hywel
My brake mans going to have to walk beside the rover, the seat box is also at the painters.
That might be safer anyway if things go bad they would not have to waste time jumping from the rover.
This is how the rover is right now. (Minus the front doors).
Victor
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Twice I had a L/R end up in a dam in similar situations because I thought I'd be quick enough when things went wrong. The second time it clipped a tree first
and did some damage. Both times I was working on my own. Things can get out of hand very fast.
.W.
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602 this is what you're after I think
Hi,
I think you are right. It's not quite what I remember, but close enough to put what I do remember into doubt.
Can anyone comment on which is best gearing for hand-cranking up hill ... first gear or reverse (assuming you have a choice).
Slightly ON TOPIC, I have vague memories of a film, set in Africa, involving a gate, on a hill, and a Series One with no hand brake ... and presumably an engine that could not be restarted if switched off. The challenge was to get out of the Landy, open the gate, and back into the Landy before it had rolled too far back down the hill.
It might have been interesting to experiment, see how slowly a driverless Landy can trickle along, at tick-over, in 1st gear LO, while the driver is employed elsewhere. I have a vague memory of a film, where the hero came across somebody walking across the desert.
"Where's you car?"
"Several miles in front of us!"
"What do you mean?"
"The engine would not go faster than a tick-over ... so to relieve the boredom, I got out and jogged alongside ... and tripped. The car got away from me".
602
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That’s from “The Gods Must be Crazy “
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That’s from “The Gods Must be Crazy “
great film, I have the Land Rover clips on my phone :first
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That’s from “The Gods Must be Crazy “
I seem to remember that Land Rover ending up a tree at one point in that film as well.
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The starter motor might just do it in low range no problem.
Hi,
I'm tempted to agree with that ... subject to the spark plugs being on the bench ... and you being able to apply the brakes.
Me? I'd give it 30 seconds on the starter motor, followed by a 60 second rest, but those figures are plucked out of thin air.
Hand cranking will test fitness, as your torso bobs up and down.
Make sure that you have some sort of "fail safe" (wife on the footbrake ... the extra weight will be negligible) Decide before you start what will be the ultimate move ... she bales out ... or yanks steering to full lock, then jumps.
I used to use a boat winch hung from the gantry, to pull my various Landies up the 1:8 drive ... lots of steel cable. Fairly effortless, apart from my upper body having to pump up and down.
It's a good idea to decide what CAN go wrong, and plan, before you start pulling.
602
602
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This is a perfect application for a length of rope and a few pulley blocks. Heck, you could probably pull it up the slope with two men on the ends, no need for vehicles to pull it up. That's not much of a slope, what would it take to push it? 200-300 lbs force? Divide that by 6 with the pulleys and each man would be pulling maybe 50 lbs effort.
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Impressive thinking on blocks and tackles, but aren't we rather over-egging this? Surely a fixed bar or tow rope onto another vehicle. Tow it out of its current location up to a suitable pickup location for a tow / flatbed to load it and take it away?
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Quite so, but people love to speculate on the complicated...
:-\
It's worth noting that using the starter motor to "wind" a vehicle out of danger is a useful (lifesaving) technique.
:snowman-1
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It's worth noting that using the starter motor to "wind" a vehicle out of danger is a useful (lifesaving) technique.
A colleague where my father worked claimed he could "drive" his vintage Alvis on the starter and get it up to 3rd gear.
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I've "driven" Tonka up the concrete ramp and into the shed on the starter motor before, a useful technique. Another handy option is the Tirfor winch. A less handy option is a ratchet strap. I once came across a chap, miles out in the Forest, attempting to pull an L200 out of a ditch using one. He had been there some hours...
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Hi Guys
More great advise thank you all, but the situation has just gotten more complicated, we now have snow and bitterly cold temps to contend with (-10C) which for this location of Canada is really cold everything shuts down.
With the added difficulty of snow to contend with I am probably going to have to use the rovers excellent 4 wheel drive feature. However that entails installing the front drive shaft (still off at this time), it also means I will be handcranking through 2 diffs filled with thick cold gear oil. Me thinks this project may get delayed till our normal warmer rainy (wet coast of Canada) weather returns in about 10 days.
Just a side note* that driveway is steeper than it looks, my 62 Dormobile easily backs up it in low range but high range is a fight with lots of clutch slippage and high revs.*
Nanuq. Great idea about using pulleys and my friends, however most of my friends are much older than me (lots of grey hair and wisdom but not much strength).
Stay tuned this might be a while till the event occurs.
Victor
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Wow that looks great over there. Invite me over and I can add the weight of a grey haired pensioner to the mix.
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Sorry to find fault with Nanuk’s diagram, but it doesn’t offer any mechanical advantage as shown. You have two people pulling directly in the vehicle, albeit round corners. The pulley shown attached to the vehicle is redundant and wouldn’t move , if both ends of the rope are pulled simultaneously.
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Hi Old Hywel
I also noticed that the pulley diagram did not seem quit right, (I did not want to say anything and end up hurting Nanuqs feelings) he's just trying to help after all and I appreciate it. The way the diagram is it would be more of a tug of war than a constructive way to get the rover up the hill.
Also I do not think my neighbor across the street would think much of me if I used one of his saplings to haul my rover up the driveway, :bright-idea but I probably could use that light colored tree that all the branches have fallen off of, it looks plenty strong.
Victor
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can it be turned on the starter to move it????
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I disagree, Nanuq's diagram would work fine. As the rope was hauled in on both or one end the pulley on the vehicle would pull the 109 up. Look at it this way; if the rope gets effectively shortened by pulling on the end the slack in the middle has to go somewhere!
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Hi genocache
Yes you are right if the rope went around the pulley "completely" that would work, but in nanuqs drawing the rope is attached to each side of the pulley (I kind of think that might have been a drawing error).
If that was actually what nanuq intended it would work just fine and with enough man power on each end it may actually sling shot the poor old rover right into the neighbors' house.
Yes Mr. beginner the starter would likely work to move the rover up the hill just fine. Its freshly rebuilt and I have a good battery
Victor
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Victor, even if it was attached at both sides of the pulley or just to the bumper/crossmember the effect of shortening the rope would pull the car up.
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Ooopsie, I have initiated Internet Disagreement V2.12a for the year. Blast!
Sorry all, I had just seen a youtube video showing the many uses of blocks and tackle. So naturally my mind leapt with the agility of a drunken reindeer to that conclusion! No worries, I am not offended nor easily done so.
My drawing was meant to show the rope going around the block fixed to the back of the Rover. But that doesn't seem right... as said, pulling the running ends of the rope WOULD pull it backward. But is there a mechanical advantage there? It might as well be tied to the Rover. What if one running end was stationary, then the rope would go round all the other pulleys, Rover included, just like a block and tackle. I guess I need to read up on this some more.
You want that Rover up that slope? Do it the old fashioned way.
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Or a brave of elephant? Maybe not too many elephants roaming around British Columbia... Especially ones with spiked shoes on.
I would actually suggest that your diagram is correct and having a pulley on the front of the towed vehicle makes sense if two other vehicles are doing line pulls. That would allow the line speeds to vary without pulling the towed vehicle out of line. If not, the line speed of both pull vehicles has to be the same to even out the line pull.
I'll get my hat...
Mind you - I still think a short rope and another 4x4 and dragging it tow here it can be loaded is by far the simplest and safest solution. I live on a steep hill and am for ever doing crazy manoeuvres to get various dead vehicles in and out of my garage. I even hooked up a winch to the bin lorry one morning as an anchor point while they were on a break.
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That would allow the line speeds to vary without pulling the towed vehicle out of line.
Hi,
A rope hung over a pulley will act as a differential.
If you tie one end of the rope to a tree, and pull the other end, the drag will move at half the speed of the tug, so will only require half the grunt. An extra pulley, will halve it again.
Something in my mind is telling me that the Velocity Ratio of a block and tackle is equal to the number of pulleys ... which isn't what I said in the previous paragraph.... but I think both statements are correct. :stars Probably my phraseology is wrong, but the physics is correct. ???
I do not recommend using a chain hoist (Churchill Motion?) horizontally ... the chain will be reluctant to flow freely, and it will get all muddy. Don't ask how I know!
Provided I have a beam/gantry, and access from above, I prefer a chain hoist to a jib crane. Much cheaper, and uses less floor space.
Having both types of lifting kit is best of all.
602
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Something in my mind is telling me that the Velocity Ratio of a block and tackle is equal to the number of pulleys ... which isn't what I said in the previous paragraph.... but I think both statements are correct. :stars Probably my phraseology is wrong, but the physics is correct. ???
It depends whether the pulley is fixed to the tree or fixed to the vehicle being pulled.
If attached to the tree there is no advantage. If the rope is attached to a tree, then led round a pulley on the vehicle, and then pulled at the other end there is a two-fold advantage.
The way to work out the ratio in any situation is to picture moving the vehicle one foot, and then see how much rope you can wind in to take up the slack.
In the original question the best option is to fix one pulley to the vehicle, tie the rope to the tree, lead it down the slope, round the pulley on the vehicle, back up the slope, and then round the second pulley also attached to the tree. Then one vehicle pulls the rope along the road, and gets a two-fold advantage pulling the vehicle up the drive. If you need more pull then hitch the 2nd vehicle in front of the first as a double-header.
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Honestly, just taking the spark plugs out and cranking by hand is a lot easier than you might think it is. Have a go! It's just slow and time consuming, but it will keep you warm in that weather!
I would choose reverse, because it is the lowest ratio. More winding but less effort. Gear ratios are on Terri Ann's web site here: http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/gear_ratio.htm
Have a substantial chock to hand (or foot) to chock a front wheel when you want a breather.
David
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Hi Victor-
I used to move my S1 around the workshop with the hand crank, plugs out. On hard, smooth, level ground, I can even ride on the bumper while cranking. Never tried it on a hill!
I'd put a hand winch on that telephone pole in the photo (or on a heavy car parked up in the intersection), and pull it up, with a competent and attentive brake-operator sitting inside.
I've hand-winched a few trucks and trailers up my dad's 8% grade. Lifting 2000kg up 8% only requires 160kg of pull. Even my lowly $29 chinese hand winch is rated at 300kg.
Of course, halve the cable tension if you want, as above, by fixing the winch on the same anchor as the free cable end, after running the cable through a pulley whose axle is fixed to the car (or vice-versa).
Jeremy
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Hi Guys
No offence taken for anything anybody says or suggests, SWMBO says I need all the help I can get. Keep the ideas coming.
Nanuq sorry no Moose on Vancouver island but we do have Elk (kinda the same) but not quite as robust it may take 2 of them. Your up in Alaska right? So how cold is it there right now? When's the date the sun comes up over the horizon again? We are setting all kinds of cold records in BC. I do not even want to go out to the garage right now.
I am going to try the hand crank thing (in reverse cause I can not get it turned around) the gear ratio should be favorable, but if that does not work I guess I will admit defeat and let the tow truck winch me up to the street.
Like I said with this cold gear oil freezing weather this event is temporarily on hold.
Victor
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The world is going mad... Here we are about to go into what may be the warmest New Year period on record...
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Hi,
Remember that you want LO-transfer, as well as first or reverse.
I found the most effort was used to move my torso up and down when cranking.
We all seem to be aware of to complexity of letting go of the crank handle when one needs a breather. The solution would be some sort of ratchet to prevent the engine turning backwards. My only idea, so far, is a spring loaded "sprag" that fits over the flywheel timing hole, and ratchets over the teeth on the starter ring.
I don't think that's a good idea ... so I'll throw it open for others to come up with something better.
My Rover 60 P3(?) had a free-wheel unit on the back of the gearbox ... you could change from top to first, at 60mph without using the clutch ... which used to impress hitch-hikers when they asked what the big knob was for.
602
PS, completely OT, but the above reminded me .... way back when, I believe Rolls Royce used a separate clutch, rubbing on the flywheel. to pull the brake linkage ... a primitive form of power brakes.
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I vote for the moose
:snowflake
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.... have we all managed to catch up on how they did it (and the dangers) in the film:- "Ice Cold in Alex" ?
:xmas_wreath
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My Rover 60 P3(?) had a free-wheel unit on the back of the gearbox ... you could change from top to first, at 60mph without using the clutch ...
A OT question but why was ^^^this thought to be a good idea at the time :stars
or have I drunk to much over Christmas and lost all understanding :wine3
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Hi guys
I am finally going to watch that movie tonight, I have found a version on Tubi that seems to be the full length version,
I am looking forward to it, maybe I will pick up a few pointers.
This event is still postponed, lots more snow forecast for tonight, not sure that global warming thing is actually working properly, it should be raining here all winter (wet coast of Canada) not snowing. :snowman-1
Victor
PS diffwhine you are correct no Elephant's in BC I think the closest ones would be in the Calgary Zoo 600 miles away.
I am not to sure how they would react to Elephant hide upholstery either. (That always takes a lot of explaining at car shows) telling folks its just called " Elephant hide" its really vinyl.
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.... have we all managed to catch up on how they did it (and the dangers) in the film:- "Ice Cold in Alex" ?
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it’s a film.
While the scene may provide a sense of tension and drama, it is totally unfeasible and unrealistic. From what I remember, (years since I watched the film) close-ups of the driving wheels show them rolling freely over the sand, rather than being powered and digging in.
Perhaps that’s why a Land Rover is seen, it was needed for the winching.
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PS diffwhine you are correct no Elephant's in BC I think the closest ones would be in the Calgary Zoo 600 miles away.
I am not to sure how they would react to Elephant hide upholstery either. (That always takes a lot of explaining at car shows) telling folks its just called " Elephant hide" its really vinyl.
My 2A 109 in Zimbabwe (aka White Horse) had real elephant hide on the seats. It was one single sprung bench seat - pretty standard material in those days on working vehicles. Locally assembled in Rhodesia - the best bit was the local mandatory content - seats!
And still no idea why the image has been compressed...
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... yes I realise the film is not a documentary :tiphat
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Nanuq sorry no Moose on Vancouver island but we do have Elk (kinda the same) but not quite as robust it may take 2 of them.
Hi,
Sorry, as this went OT five days ago, but Santa's reindeer (rein as in harness) are, I believe, caribou.
There is something in my mind that they are all girls, as it's the females that have the horns ... but feel free to correct me.
602
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... yes I realise the film is not a documentary :tiphat
It's not totally infeasible though. It is true that applying torque at a very low speed gets a better grip on slippery surfaces. 1st gear in low range at idling speed is a good way of getting started on sheet ice or powdery snow. Like the trick of half applying a car handbrake. It stops excess torque from suddenly spinning the wheel.
Like walking very very slowly on black ice - try and go faster and you fall over straight away.
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A OT question but why was ^^^this thought to be a good idea at the time :stars
Hi Stain
A clutchless change from top into first gear, at 60mph, was just showing off. :shakeinghead.
Having changed my Minivan for the Rover (1997cc), I added my normal gallon of petrol .... and ran out about 10 miles later. On one memorable trip from Thetford to South London, when broke, I slip-streamed coaches, and free-wheeled at every opportunity. I managed to get about 30mpg.
I sometimes wonder if the (lockable) free-wheel on the front of 80" gearbox ... giving selectable full or part-time four wheel, was similar to that used on the back of P3 (and P4?) cars. On my P3 (?) 1997cc Granny Rover, turning the big knob on the dashboard unlocked the free-wheel unit, so that you only had foreward drive when the gearbox main-shaft wanted to turn faster than the prop-shaft. About 55 years ago, so I can't remember if I had to lock the free-wheel if I wanted to reverse.
602
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Myself and SWMBO watched the movie (Ice Cold in Alex) last night all 2 hours 22 minutes of it, I must say it was not bad, not bad at all.
I did learn a few things other than when hand cracking a vehicle backwards up a hill make sure to hang on to the handle and have a helper manning the hand brake. If I ever have to drive through a desert I will be sure to bring along a complete spare rear axle spring and TWO jacks, so you do not have to rely on those flimsy desert rocks to support the vehicle as you change the spring with your bare hands.
SWMBO was kind of wondering why I was watching this movie normally I just watch movies like this in case there is a Land rover sighting, she was wondering where all the Land rovers were :thud I said just wait they were not invented till near the end of the war there might be one near the end of the movie it just depends how many days it takes them to get across the desert.
Anyway more snow another 5-6 inches last night so the event is still on hold.
Victor
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Victor, the Sierra's have gotten 193 inches of snow THIS MONTH! A new record for Dec. :snowman-1 :tiphat :snowflake
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@diffwhine it's very simple why your image was compressed, it's that huge piece of elephant hide stretched clear across the truck. Someone spilled a beer on it and it shrunk. :tiphat
OK I'm still thinking about blocks and tackles. Consider these diagrams, numbered 1 thru 4.
In #1 pulling the green lead down gives a 1:2 advantage because C is fixed and A + B = C so their forces will be halved.
In #2 the force on D equals the force on C, the cosine of X between D and F is zero so there is no "vertical" component to add to C to provide an advantage, like there is with B plus A. If A and B are motionless, then D equals F by rotation of moment arms.
In #3 the force on D equals F, it's mechanically the same thing. There is no mechanical advantage as long as A remains motionless.
In #4 D is colinear with F so the force F equals A + B + C + D, so pulling A or D requires 1/4 the force.
Now I have to think about the angles X and their cosines. This is a vector problem and the benefit derived from the leftmost pulley depends on the angle at which its line leaves its surface, ranging from 0 to 90 to 180 degrees. Hmmmmm.
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Ahhhhhhh, here we go. Sure 'nuff it's the cosine of the angle of applied force.
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My brain has just exploded...
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Ahhhhhhh, here we go. Sure 'nuff it's the cosine of the angle of applied force.
ha, I just spent some time wondering what TREE in the brown circles stood for, now I feel stupid :-X
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Hi genocache I came from Alberta 30 years ago I know snow, its different out here on the "wet coast of Canada" 2-3 inches of :snowflake and the roads are utterly shut down its kind of unbelievable, its wet slippery stuff that packs into solid ice as soon as it gets driven on. Best just to stay home in front of the fire.
Hi nanuq Thanks for the diagrams my head hurts as well.
Here is a perfect example of your math skills put to work, this is from maybe 6 years ago about this time of year in the mountains west of Chemanus on Vancouver island. The Disco slid backwards maybe 100 yards down the hill (which was literally packed down to ice) into the ditch, (the disco had 3 female passengers there was a lot of screaming going on) we used the 109s front PTO winch and a tree (with a tree strap to protect the tree) and a pulley strategically placed to get the poor disco out of its resting spot it was a good fun day.
Victor
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Two nice vehicles there ^.
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@island dormy those are two fine looking trucks, but of course I prefer the 109. What a looker.
I love pulling people out with my 88" 2A. It's funny but some folks feel like it's an insult to their manliness or something, to have a quaint old beastie helping them. If the snow is hard and cold, low range and a snatch strap does amazing things. My best pull yet was a monstrous long 1982 Chevy Suburban full of sled dogs with sleds on top. The driver was a high school girl going out to work her dogs and unfortunately she was a better dog driver than truck driver. My little 2A pulled that whole mess right out of the ditch. Honestly, I was a little surprised.
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Hi Nanuq,
In the UK, that's called "pulling the birds"
602
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The driver was a high school girl going out to work her dogs and unfortunately she was a better dog driver than truck driver.
Hi,
... and then there was the story of the RAF fighter pilot, who tried to excuse him tail-gating the car in front, despite him having assumed fast reactions.
He said had pulled the steering wheel back ... same as he always did when passing something. :thud
602
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72 posts, 18 days and still waiting for action.
.W.
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If you can hand crank a Rover up a hill, Island Dormy has a :cheersjob for you.
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Hi Guys
Still lots and lots of snow here so it wont be this week. I've been working on my cardio, cause I know its going to be tough.
Victor
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Pffffffft! What's a little snow to a Land Rover! Although I wouldn't want to hand crank mine through this....
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Hi Nanuq
Nice photos of your rover in its natural Alaskan environment, I would not want to crank it up the hill in that much snow either even though its probably very light snow and easy to push through.
Its not the going up its the coming back down sliding all the way if (opps) I mean when the cranky gets worn out.
The snow is pretty much gone (back to rain) but the fellow who is painting it for me has hurt himself, so the cranking attempt is on hold, I have no clue when the big day will occur, stay tuned.
To keep myself occupied while I am waiting I am hand forming new PVC interior panels for the Dormobile, all the original mactack over cardboard ones have disintegrated. It is very slow work.
Victor
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If I ever have to drive through a desert I will be sure to ...
Hi Victor,
I had to drive an RAF Bedford RL from close to Dubai, for about 60 miles straight inland, accompanying a convoy of TUS (Trucial Omen Scouts ... AKA "the table cloth soldiers") Bedford. Soft sand ... about 20 trucks, line abreast, flat out, each followed by a rooster tall of sand, as far back as the eye could see.
That was after a tea break, when we could ask why we were pedal to the metal in 3rd gear and 4x4. They explained that as soon as they hit soft sand, they stopped, and reduced their tyre pressures from 70 psi to 20psi. The RLs are witted with an engine driven air compressor.
We tried it ... effortless cruising in 4x2 and top gear.
Years later, I welded two pairs of car wheels together, with low pressure in the tyres, to facilitate launching a boat on the sands of Caswell Bay, near Swansea. I had not taken into account that Barbara would stall the engine of my 1953 Landy 86", while the exhaust was under water. But yeah, towing that trailer on sand was easy.
602
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Hi Guys
The big day is fast approaching the painter is back painting and is almost ready for my rover.
I did practice some hand cranking in the garage.............I now think I might be tuckered out before I get it all the way up the hill. It may take longer than I initially thought. We shall see very soon.
Stay tuned.
Victor
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Hi,
If my welding was suspect, I'd tie the hawser to the axle ... if anything goes wrong, the chassis scraping on the ground will slow things down.
If an axle IS going to fall off, its better it happens on your own turf.
602
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Hi w3526602
I hope nothing falls off as it goes up the hill, I dont want to lose my concentration tripping over anything as I crank it up the hill.
However I may fall down from exhaustion if I manage to get it up to the top of the long steep driveway.
Victor
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I'm sure that by sticking to your rigorous training program your finely tuned body will peak at just the right moment. Don't forget to lubricate the handle where it goes through the bumper.
.W.
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Hi,
It would be useful if some Clever Clogs could devise a simple and cheap device for preventing a plug-less engine from rotating backwards. You may not want such a device very often ... but when you do .... I'll put that idea/problem on the back burner.
It might be worth mentioning that my experience showed that hand cranking the truck up a hill was not difficult. It was humping my torso up and down through 90 degrees, sixty times a minute, for several minutes, was the killer.
The obvious answer is to remove the spark plugs, engage LO, engage which ever direction gear that you require (FIRST or REVERSE) .... and hit the starter button. A plug-less engine turns very easily.
If you run out of amps, presumably the hand brake will hold you long enough to jump out and put a large block on the appropriate side of the most accessible wheel.
Remember to release the handbrake before resuming traction.
In my experience, hand cranking a spark-plugless Landy, in it's lowest ratio, up a 1 in 4 slope was a lot easier than hand cranking it against just the compression. Try it!
Who knows, maybe the starter motor will do it for you, if there is no compression, and you are in crawler gear?
Usual disclaimers!
602
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Hi Guys
No bumper at this stage that will make it a bit more difficult, the handle will be flailing around a fair bit, I am thinking about putting it on temporarily.
Also no seat box so no battery so no electrical assist, its going to be done by manpower alone.
Victor
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I am thinking about putting it on temporarily.
Hi Victor,
Perhaps there is a club member who could/would donate a bent bumper to your/our cause? You only need the section that lies between the dumb irons ... perhaps with a bit of tube welded in the crank-handle hole.
602
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How would you like to borrow a manly man's cordless drill? Heck, even a 1/2" corded drill with a long extension cord. Make up a dog to fit the connection on front of the crank, chuck it up in the drill and go.
I recommend foot-long 4x4 chocks to block the front tires from rolling, with a length of rope attached on each end. Tie the ropes to the chassis beneath the seatbox, and to the door frame. Let the chock drag along "behind" the tire as you roll along, so if you slip on the ice, the truck rolls onto the chock and saves you getting gished.
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However you crank the vehicle I strongly think you should have the bumper in place to fully support the starting handle.
It's only 4 bolts which are readily accessible.
Not sure how common "spare" bumpers are in Canada, but you could fabricate something from some scrap angle, etc. if you don't have a bumper to hand.
Moving it on the starter motor would also be a "goer".
Again, to fit a starter motor is not that difficult.
Me - I would wire it up so you can work the starter motor remotely - have a long trigger cable to the solenoid such that you can walk at the side of the vehicle, perhaps even removing the driver's door for access to the steering wheel and hand brake.
You could also walk and have a substantial wheel chock in one hand - ready to throw behind a wheel if things started to get out of hand.
???
:starting_handle
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Hi Nanuq,
You remind of my early days in a general engineering firm (1956).
The experienced engineer, that I was working with, got his tie caught in the drill bit in a proper workshop bench drill (none of the 1/4HP stuff).
He was frantically groping for the OFF switch, while he and the chuck were fighting for mastery ... his nose was going back and fore, as his adrenaline levels rose and fell in adverse proportion the gap between his nose and the chuck. Yes, he managed to pull the chuck backwards.
In the Govt Training Centre workshops, all the machine tools (drills, lathes, millers, etc) were fitted with a "kick-board" at ground level, to kill their motors.
In an RAF HGV garage there was this sudden loud roaring noise ... the troops were diving under lorries, into the pits, etc.
Red faces when they realised somebody had accidentally discharged a large "gas" fire extiguisher.
602
PS ... overtaken by Alan. I agree with everything he said. Remember, while you are cranking an engine ... the petrol pump will still be working ... just keep it in mind, take precautionary steps if necessary.
I once hit the starter solenoid on a Triumph Herald, from which I had removed the carbutooter. The petrol pump gave several good squirts of petrol, which an ignition spark ignited. The car was in the garage UNDER my house ..... :stars
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I think I've said this before, but aren't we over-engineering a solution to a basic problem? :stars
Its a vehicle in the wrong place. It go there somehow, so there must be vehicular access. What's wrong with using just a rope and another vehicle?
Or are we trying to avoid too many vehicles ending up in one spot?
Reminds me of the Roundstone Connemara crane incident "We're going to need a bigger crane"...
:tiphat
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Hi,
Should the need arise ...
I have pulled a Yank Tank sideways with an S1.
Throw a rope over a wheel, taking both ends of the rope back to the Landy's front bumper, select 1st gear in LO, and gently pull. PoP!
602
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Thanks again for all the advice guys I do appreciate it.
The big day is fast approaching after 3 years 3 months of restoration work to send the rover to the painters maybe even tomorrow (weather permitting) then this thread will finally be over.
I did a test crank as far as the door to make sure I could get it outside.1/4 inch to spare I was really worried about the clearance, new parabolics, no doors, no glass, no seat box so no battery which means no starter, no fenders, no bonnet etc. etc. its sitting very high.
I think I'm ready.
Victor
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Let the air out of the tyres for more clearance - if you need it.
You can move the vehicle a few feet on flat tyres and not do any lasting harm to them.
If you wanted - you could jury rig a battery held with a ratchet strap and some temporary cable. You could use jump leads. Fit the starter motor, and away you go, probably a lot safer and you'll have better control over the move.
:-\
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Hi,
:cheers
Er, hand cranking, without a bumber bar to support the front end of the cranking handle, will make life difficult. Ideally, if cranking a project vehicle, just use the centre section cut from somebody else's bent bumper.
Some of you may remember my plans to hand crank an engineless project around my front garden. Having no engine meant not having a cranking "dog" on the front of the engine.
That was resolved by Dentman donating an axle drive member, which would fit onto the gear-box clutch shaft splines, and somebody else (age related memory loss ) making an adaptor plate to hold a wheel nut onto the front of the "dog", which would have enabled me to use a line of several socket extension bars, poking through the front bumper, that could be rotated with a ratchet.
In the event, the owner of the project Series decided not to sell.
I too would have had problems getting any Series into my garage, as there only about 70" clearance under my U&O garage door. The immediate solution would have been to remove the full-hardtop.
I don't know if my plans to fit "dinky" wheels and tyres would have been a permanent solution, as well as dropping the passenger seat to Barbara's bum height. In the event, we have since spent circa £10,000 on disability adaptations to our bungalow, so time for a rethink.
602
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I learned a neat trick watching my buddy move Rovers around in his shop. Put it in neutral and put your hand on top of the front tire. Give it a push right on the tread, and it's astounding how easy it is to move. I'm sure there are mechanical leverages involved, I'll think about the math.
But if push comes to shove (grin) I bet you and three friends could each man a tire, and push that thing anywhere you want it to go just by shoving on the tops of the tires. Keep wheel chocks handy.
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I learned a neat trick watching my buddy move Rovers around in his shop. Put it in neutral and put your hand on top of the front tire. Give it a push right on the tread, and it's astounding how easy it is to move. I'm sure there are mechanical leverages involved, I'll think about the math.
But if push comes to shove (grin) I bet you and three friends could each man a tire, and push that thing anywhere you want it to go just by shoving on the tops of the tires. Keep wheel chocks handy.
For me, hands on top of the tire is the only way to push (as long as the wheels aren't being powered, of course ... you'd hate to be leaning on a tire that suddenly spins!). It cuts the force required in half, same as a 2-pulley block and tackle.
I forgot: I've used my 3/4" ratchet handle on the 48mm socket on the starter dog, with an extension through the front PTO hole, to crank mine around. That's very easy, since the handle lever is about 18" long, compared to the puny hand crank supplied by Rover. Up a hill, someone would have to use the footbrake at every ratchet back-and-forth. I'd have loaned it to you if I were closer (and I'd have helped push -- either the Dormobile or just the brake pedal!).
I still vote for using the moose, though. Good luck!
Jeremy
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What's the conversion rate from Moose Power to Horse Power?
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1.4
:snowman-1
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Hi Guys
I know that hand on the tire trick it works wonderfully. I used to have a 1 Inch drive ratchet with a 3 foot handle that would have given all kinds of leverage, good idea Jeremy. I think I could borrow the one from work no problem we are not doing much on the trains right now anyway.
However we have severe winter fog here this morning, after all the work I have done on this vehicle I really dont want to take it out and get it sopping wet, it is supposed to clear up this afternoon so I am still hopeful this will go ahead. Its only a 10-15 minute trip to the painters shop.
Victor
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Put it in neutral and put your hand on top of the front tire. Give it a push right on the tread,
Hi Nanook,
The top of the tyre wil move twice as fast as the hub, so requiring half the grunt , but for twice as long, for the same distance moved.
I think?
f you expect to do a lot of manhandling ... I hung a 750kg boat winch from the RSJ gantry, which was built into the walls of the garage below my self-built house. It could pull a LWB S2 estate up the 20+ ft of my 1:8 drive., and into the garage. However, the more cable on the drum, the more effort it needed. So I added lengths of old seat belt, chocking the wheels, and removing individual belts, every few feet.
There have to be better ways, but hey, I didn't need to do it very often.
Note, boat winches are rated by their pulling ability, not their ability to lift, and the more cable you have on the drum, the harder it gets.
I had three metres of "wire" on my winch, with old seat belts as extensions, with suitable bricks as chocks while I shortened the "rope".
602
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Hi,
I have lowered a n S2 by putting a big plastic drum in the tub, and filling with a hose pipe. Then using a syphon pipe to empty the drum when no longer required. Forty UK gallons weigh 400 pounds. Effortless!
But that was before we had a place in France, and learned the cost of potable water. Nowadays, I ponder on the possible economies of installing a scatter can gentleman's urinal in our bathroom. I think it was the late Duke of Edinburg who commented on the stupidity of "spending a penny" then using a couple of gallons of potable water to flush it away.
For the edification of our overseas readers, it used to cost a penny (in the slot) to use a private cubicle in a public convenience. When we had a place in France, that often gave you access to a "Cubicle Turque", aka "The Squat" .... although the British Military had a rhyming slang name that I'm not allowed to use here.
602
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Hi Guys
Well the weather finally cleared up enough to attempt to get the Rover to the paint shop.
I would like to thank everybody for all their advice, some of it was actually good advice and possibly stood a chance of actually working, sorry Nanuq no Moose on Vancouver Island I would have had to import one from the mainland, on top of that there's the issue of getting a government permit to keep a wild animal on a city lot, we can have chickens in the city (no roosters) but a Moose is doubtful.
Some of other advice offered was a tad too far fetched to even consider attempting, but again thanks.
So I'm going to answer the question on everybody's mind.
Can you really hand crank a Land Rover backwards up a fairly steep hill just like they did in that famous WW2 movie (with the Land rover in the last scene) "Ice Cold In Alex"
The answer is................ NO not a chance, I admit defeat, it beat me I was worn out before it even got to the steeper part.
Victor
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I'm glad that's sorted, thanks for trying.
.W.
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Hi Victor,
Sorry, I have to disagree. I've done it, guestimated slope of I:4, single handed. The 86" S1 moved easily enough, but humping my torso up ad down was an effort, although I was young then (circa 30)
When trying to undo the crank nut on my S2TD, I had all four wheels chocked with 6" concrete block, and hand-brake hard on .... it just rolled over the concrete blocks as though they were not there. It was many years later that I realised my logic was wrong ... being in reverse gear LO-cog was working against me ... I should have been in the highest gear possible ... the exact opposite from mountaineering.
Remember, for hand cranking, to move a truck, you need lowest gear possible, with spark plugs removed ... and maybe somebody on the brakes.
For undoing the crank bolt, you want the highest gear possible, hand brake and chocks, and somebody standing on the brake pedal. It's much easier to use a hammer and chisel. Kinetics are King.
602