S2C Forum Archives
Main Section => Welcome to our virtual Pub Meeting ... => Topic started by: Alan Drover on December 08, 2022, 07:19:24 PM
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The last time I did this a couple of years ago was when I came across a modern car stranded in the middle lane at the traffic lights on a slip road off the A303. The driver told me he'd put the wrong fuel in so I (foolishly) offered to tow him the few hundred yards to a filling station. Fortunately as he was struggling to screw in the towing eye a police patrol car appeared behind him and switched on his blue lights. With him as an escort I set off. The car driver was a complete idiot and after a few yards the towing eye pulled out. He was able to screw it back in and I made sure it was tight. He didn't keep the tow rope tight and I had to watch the rope oin the mirror to make sure I didn't jerk it and probably pull the front of his car off. With my police escort I towed him to the filling station where I left him. The police officer commented on the driver's lack of knowledge when being towed. I never was thanked for my trouble by the driver but the police officer was very grateful as I probably saved him a lot of trouble.
I now won't tow anyone broken down in a modern vehicle. After all, my tow rope has a 12 ton breaking strain, the shackles 3 and the rear cross member on my 27 year old galvanized chassis is as good as new so the first thing to give would be the towed vehicle towing point so where would I stand on insurance?
I would help a Series) Defender/early Range Rover/Discovery but no automatics.
What experiences of towing utter idiots have others had?
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Perhaps Dan from Adrian Flux could comment on the insurance aspect.
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Get the towee to sign a disclaimer against towing damage to their vehicle. Have a witness, a police officer makes a good witness.
Sadly, these days most drivers have no clue on how to be towed.
Not something you learn in a couple of minutes.
Things like the steering column lock can be interesting at the first bend.
No brake servo, making braking heavier on the foot.
etc.
This is because beaver tail transporters are everywhere now.
You don't see many recoveries on the rigid pole or on the spectacles.
Much safer all round to get winched up on a recovery truck.
:breakdown truck
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i won't any more unless she a stunner. Pulled a guy out of a ditch in Lincolnshire once back on the road he was so grateful couldn't say thank you enough, shot down the road after forcing a tenner into my hand (not wanted) turns out he'd stolen the car and I had technically 'Added and abetted, or what ever it's called now. And the stunner I pulled onto the road after she got stuck in the snow, got a lovely cuddle as a thank you, much better than a tenner.
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In the case of the guy stuck in the middle lane, what was wrong with just helping him push it off the carriageway, or into the side?
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In the case of the guy stuck in the middle lane, what's was wrong with just helping him push it off the carriageway, or into the side?
It was at a set of traffic lights on a busy roundabout complex and other drivers were more likely to see the Land Rover. The police escort was an unexpected bonus and kept others clear.
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Don't people realise they can drive the car quite a few yards and up kerbs on just the starter motor ???
This could get you to the side of the road, or off a level crossing.
OK - I've not tried it personally on modern stuff.
:snowman-1
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Don't people realise they can drive the car quite a few yards and up kerbs on just the starter motor ???
This could get you to the side of the road, or off a level crossing.
OK - I've not tried it personally on modern stuff.
:snowman-1
Would all the electronic junk on modern vehicles permit it?
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Most modern vehicles are automatic, have stop start systems and have irritating features like push button start and so on. All systems designed specifically the thwart any possible ability to give any form of road side assistance.
Many will not even go in to neutral unless the engine is running, so if its an auto, its stuck in park. Some have override levers / cables, but to be frank, it isn't worth the bother. Let the professionals do it.
While on the subject, I have supplied my on board fire extinguishers to 4 different car fires over the years. In theory, you can claim for replacement from the affected vehicle's insurance. Not one person has ever bothered to offer to pay for the extinguisher even after the panic is over. No insurance company has ever paid me back and 2Kg extinguishers are not cheap.
I have a simple policy now - if its on fire - let it burn... Bah humbug...
As for towing - only ever if it's a vehicle I can understand (Land Rover pre 2012) and never for anybody I don't know. Its just not worth the bother. I have been sued by somebody who I helped in the snow on the M6 - long story, but not my fault and I won. I've also had an interesting experience towing another Land Rover where the driver being towed actually forgot he was being towed and tried to pass me... That did not end well either.
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Would all the electronic junk on modern vehicles permit it?
Good point! My Seat Exeo (Audi A4 clone) wont turn over unless you have your foot on the clutch, so I would be stuffed. :shakeinghead
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Yep, agreed.
All the stuff I drive, you have to depress clutch for manuals and apply brake pedal for autos before they’ll start...:shakeinghead
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OK
So with the clutch pedal down, in 1st gear can you press the starter button and will she move ???
:snowman-1
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I'll keep my towing equipment in the Land Rover and just drive past any broken down or stuck vehicle.
I would like to know the insurance implications though.
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OK
So with the clutch pedal down, in 1st gear can you press the starter button and will she move ???
:snowman-1
Never actually tried it. 😁
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In the snow a few years ago I had multiple people pretty much beg me to tow them out of drifts. I always stated, in front of witnesses that I would not be liable if any damage occurred. Seemed the right thing to do seeing as the alternative would be to let them freeze.
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Speaking of numpties and towing watch the first minute of this and then imagine the liability mess they’ve got to sort out.
https://youtu.be/e4lvkiuioEs (https://youtu.be/e4lvkiuioEs)
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Last time we did it - similar circumstances, trying to move someone clear of a major junction, uphill, towing them about 200m to a layby - I put the Mrs in the towed vehicle whilst we moved it in the end, for exactly the reason stated above. The person being towed didn't have a clue, which we realised pretty quickly when I tried to pull them and their car moved up the road with the rear wheels screeching because they wouldn't let the handbrake off.
In hindsight I hadn't considered whether the Mrs was insured to be in the other vehicle - technically was she covered 3rd party under her insurance, as she was insured to drive other vehicles 3p...not sure. ???
You definitely can't move a modern vehicle that requires a "clutch down" start with the starter motor trick, the elctronics won't let you. They are stuck, because the starter motor will not turn if the clutch is released, and if its down there's clearly no drive through the transmission.
Similarly to the neighbour's vehicle who was stuck where his electronic handbrake failed and he couldn't even move it down the drive to the recovery truck (this one I'd actually offered to tow with the handbrake on !). Apparently they have some sort of override on them but none of us could work it out.
On a slight aside it reminds me of the Nissan Leaf EV which asked us for a jump start the other day - I was amazed that it had a flat battery, being an EV. But the owner advised me that although the main Lithiums were fully charged, it's also got a small standard starter battery which it uses to power up all the electronics...once that goes flat the car won't "start". I couldn't believe he couldn't just jump the starter battery off the main cells, but presumably they're running at different voltages.
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.... much higher voltages.
So it looks like if you get stuck on a level crossing you have to bail out PDQ and not starter motor it off.
:level crossing
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Bit OT but this stupid "clutch push to start" thing got me thinking, so I googled it. Seems like a lot of other people have removed it for one reason or another. Quite easy to bridge it out; you can even buy a special harness that does just that! Would you need to tell your insurance company though?
What I don't understand was where was the demand to fit all these pointless electronic gizmos to modern vehicles ???
I don't remember crowds of people with placards demonstrating outside car factories demanding that they needed a button to push for a handbrake because they were too weak to pull a lever. I suppose it was all down to the bean counters.
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Braking by wire :shakeinghead
What could possibly go wrong ???
:blood_bus
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Braking by wire :shakeinghead What could possibly go wrong
Hi Alan,
I presume you mean to have the brakes applied electrically? My nearest experience to that was on my mates American built boat trailer., which by then lived in the Swansea Valley.
The overrun brake was applied by an electrically operated pump, that produced the hydraulic pressure to operate the pump required to generate that pressure. I don't know if that switch was activated by the stop-lamp switch, or by an over-run switch, or both.
My understanding is that trailer brakes, in UK, are not permitted to be hydraulically operated.
HGV air brakes, of course, are fail safe .... they rely on air-pressure to release them. Zero air-pressure means nobody is going anywhere. I think!
602
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On a slight aside it reminds me of the Nissan Leaf EV which asked us for a jump start the other day - I was amazed that it had a flat battery, being an EV. But the owner advised me that although the main Lithiums were fully charged, it's also got a small standard starter battery which it uses to power up all the electronics...once that goes flat the car won't "start". I couldn't believe he couldn't just jump the starter battery off the main cells, but presumably they're running at different voltages.
Yes, I had a Citroen Berlingo-E years ago (Yes, factory produced by Citroen back in 1999 as a trial run! See HERE (https://rms1.co.uk/berlingo/)) - the traction battery was around 186V, made up of lots of 6V 200A packs of flooded NiCd cells, but still had a standard 12V car battery (45Ah) to run all of the standard 12V stuff, including the controller to pull the actuator (VERY big heavy duty relay!) in to connect the traction battery to the controller.
The 12V battery was charged by a DC-DC converter from the traction battery, but when it was getting past its best (10 years or so later), it took more charge from the traction battery, so the range was therefore reduced.
I never had the 12V battery fail completely, though I suppose if a cell went open circuit it could have prevented the actuator working as I don't think the DC-DC converter would have produced enough current on its own.
Of course, technology has moved on - I've no idea if modern EVs use a similar system, but from the above, it would seem that the 12V battery might not be charged in the same way, or the DC-DC converter might have failed, or the 12V battery was duff ???
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I have a vague memory of my father towing a milk tanker out the way in our series III probably when I was around 7 or 8 years old.
It was a loaded milk tanker and was stopped in the middle of a busy street with just enough room for cars to squeeze by half on the curb. The driver said the starter motor had failed so he hadn't stopped the truck all morning but then managed to stall it when someone pulled out from a shop in front of him and he had to stop quick.
I see to recall we connected up a rope, selected low range and towed him out the way. What we didn't expect was at the end of the tow, he dropped the clutch and bump started it! The rear crossmember of the series III held up to that despite the legendary series III, British Leyland rust already having a firm grip on the chassis!
Craig.
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OK
So with the clutch pedal down, in 1st gear can you press the starter button and will she move ???
:snowman-1
No. With the clutch depressed it won’t move.
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My little lad spent a year at Porsche recently and their fully electic models had issues with the 12v battery going flat if the car wasn't used for about three weeks. It was some fancy lithium thing that cost £900 to replace as letting it go flat ruined it.
Madness when there's hundreds of amps present in the car but the computer won't use them to top up the 12v battery :stars
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Speaking of numpties and towing watch the first minute of this and then imagine the liability mess they’ve got to sort out.
https://youtu.be/e4lvkiuioEs (https://youtu.be/e4lvkiuioEs)
And that’s one of the reasons they closed Rufford Ford.🤣🤣🤣
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... prime candidates for the Darwin Awards :shakeinghead
... and they've been given driving licences :thud
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As you'll have seen from previous pictures I regularly get asked to pull tourists (and Park Rangers) out of the ditch on the "Forest Drive". I do it on the basis of " I'm doing this as a favour, if anything goes wrong its on your head". Leads to a steady stream of bottles of wine and/or a £20 note, Tourists sent off happy. Fine on a gravel track with limited traffic. Experience says that Recovery companies are not keen to come out here to do the job and I've heard of people being charged £250 ! Flat batteries on camper vans is another relatively regular occurrence.
On a main road I'd be up for pulling a vehicle off the road, 50m to a layby or some such but that is about it. I'd have thought that even a totally immobilised modern vehicle could be pulled that far - at risk of some tyre scuffing ? Any other likely damage ?
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Every vehicle has to be able to be recovered, so any short tow is unlikley to be a problem. The issues arise when towing things like autos where they are stuck in Park. Firstly no auto should be towed unless it is in neutral and secondly no auto should be towed any distance where drive is being transmitted from the wheels back through the auto box without the engine running. The reason for this is that most auto boxes rely on an oil pump behind the torque converter. The torque converter should only turn with the engine running. No turn = no oil pump = oil starvation = expensive failure. All autos should have a procedure to get the box into neutral. On a 4x4, the obvious solution is to bung the transfer box into neutral. This should be detailed in the owner's manual supplied with the vehicle. Herein lies another problem - most car hire companies and fleet suppliers now remove owner's handbooks from their vehicles because they keep getting pinched and bunged up on eBay. Therefore the user has no idea in an emergency how to enable recovery or even find the towing eye.
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Electric vehicles can't be towed so I've heard.
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Hi,
Off topic, but related ....
... a vehicle with a syncto-mesh gearbox should not be towed unless ...
It in in gear, or the engine is running.
The prop-shaft has been removed.
The gearbox has been filled with oil.
Free-wheeling hubs have been fitted, and disengaged, on both rear hubs. (That's tongue in cheek).
The reason is that the bearing between the primary (clutch) shaft and the main (output) shaft is lubricated by the meshing of the gears on the primary and lay shaft acting like an oil pump. If the main (out-put) shaft is not turning, neither is the lay-shaft, so there is no lubrication to that bearing.
I know, I know, we've all done it. Only, I once had to recover a broken down Standard Vanguard belonging to the RAF Driving School (Weeton near Blackpool). A soon as it was repaired, and back in service, another instructor promptly put it U/S, with a defective gearbox.
I was lined up, for a technical fizzer, which would probably resulted in 7 days Jankers.
Luckily, I remembered that the original instructor had mentioned, at the hand-over, that the gear box had been playing up.
602 (Who in 9 years, only did 3 days Jankers ... I had gone home for the weekend, instead of being on the monthly Saturday morning parade.
Jankers involved presenting myself at the Guardroom at 6AM, in best uniform with polished shoes and shiny brass buttons, then spending a couple of hours, in the evenings, cleaning the cook-house floor, and large cooking trays. Once was enough!).
PS. Overtaken by A Landrover .... I'd guess their is a similar reason to the above. I'm surprised there is no positive lock between transmission and motor .... that way you could use the tow car to charge your battery. :cheers Electric cars will charge their batteries (or so I'm told) when going, pedal off, down hills.
JW
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Surely not!!
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Interesting discussion!
I was towed by the rac to a local garage.
He was doing 30-40 mph which let quite scared
Years ago I had a small motor boat at padstow. Spotted a sailing dingy in problems and towed it to Rock.
They offer no thanks or anything, say no more!
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One of the groundcare tractors with our local authority started blowing smoke from around the engine. A recovery company collected it, using a spectacle lift. The powershift gearbox suffered failure of multiple bearings, with the casting also being damaged. Some discussion ensued as to liability for the £10,000+ repair bill.
The initial problem? A seized aircon compressor and its smoking belt.
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As an aside it depends on the gearbox.
As pointed out auto's need the oil pump as else it will eat the clutch packs.
Some manual gearboxes won't spin the Lay ( or countershaft) but the output shaft will still turn, so bearings are spinning but not receiving splash lubrication. Hence many things like trucks and lorries will have the rear drive shaft removed.
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Apparently you are not able, so it is said, to bump start an automatic vehicle. Many years ago I had a Morris Oxford Auto (Borg Warner 35?) and I bump started it on as regular basis successfully. I had the advantage of living at the top of a steep hill and also had no power steering or servo brakes
You had to free wheel in neutral and reach 35mph before moving the lever into drive for it to kick in :agh. (This was well pre flux capacitor).
Engine/gearbox outlasted the rest of the vehicle.
Don't think I would attempt it today. (or in a "modern")
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^^ These days, the 'lectronics wouldn't engage drive if they didn't detect the engine turning.
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Hi,
I believe that at one time, Americans would push start their cars, bumper to bumper ... and use a similar technique to make room to park between two cars, against the kerb.
Er, has anybody ever thought about "trickle" charging via their trailer 7-pin socket? Could it be done? RAF Crash Tenders had an umbilical connection to keep their batteries charged .... and their water tanks free from ice. The connecting plug was ejected when the handbrake was released.
Can you still buy a hard wired over-night, coolant heaters to make frosty morning starting easier, and give the driver instant warn feet? Refer to first question, above.
602
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Engine pre heaters are still available. Demon Tweeks sell them. They are usually wired to a timer to set when to switch them on.
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Hi,
I believe that at one time, Americans would push start their cars, bumper to bumper ... and use a similar technique to make room to park between two cars, against the kerb.
602
Can see bump starting causing some damage that way when the front car lifts the clutch unless the one at the back has already dropped away.
I once got a rescue off a hard shoulder of a busy bit of m62 that way, crazy guy that stopped to help was shoving us down the hard shoulder at about 30 mph to the next exit, was probably still safer than staying where we were though.
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An interesting thread, I may have learnt something!
Are we saying here that towing a vehicle with a conventional manual gearbox can do damage to the internals? I have seen HGV recovery folk disconnecting propshafts or removing halfshafts, but assumed this was because they had automatic transmissions?
Surely many cars get towed every day without damage to their manual gearboxes?
I await enlightenment........
Ian F
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I've never heard of a manual gearbox being damaged by towing. I can't speak for modern junk though, I've only ever had experience of proper cars.
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I have just read that apparently some modern petrol VW/Audi engines have been damaged beyond repair by use of the "push clutch to start". Thrust washers on the crank suffer premature wear due to inadequate lubrication during the starting process, apparently rendering the engine scrap. Bean counters would appear to have have replaced design engineers.
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Hi,
A common question on RAF mechanic/fitter trade tests was "HOW LONG IS A TOW ROPE?" Does anybody here actually know? I think I do, but its been more than 50 years since I actually needed to KNOW the answer.
One of our Leyland Hippo "10 tonner" (and 10,000cc) nuclear convoy trucks broke down, and had to be towed, using a solid bar. The towed truck was overtaken by a Morris 1000, which was forced to pull into gap, by a vehicle coming the other way. ("Smell it? I'm sitting in it!" ... a quote from a saucy seaside postcard). Unbelievably, there was no contact.
OT. All the convoy trucks were in radio contact. All the Hippo drivers had excellent views down into the side windows of passing cars. On at least two occasions, a "heads up" was radioed, that the lady in the passenger seat of an overtaking car was worthy of special attention. :cheers
One day, driving through Pontardawe, a car in a side road on my right, dived into the gap in front of me .... no real drama, until I realised that he was towing a mate in a broken down car, ....... on a long tow rope. :thud
602
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I live near to the Goyt valley in the Peak District. Whenever it snows there are lots of folk who take their children sledging, and generally experiencing the wonderful scenery. However, it’s steep approaches on all sides and there are usually a lot of vehicles stuck on a snowy day. The road closed signs are generally ignored. Thankfully, the local Land Rover owners are always on hand to help. I’ve never heard of any mishaps, but I’m sure there must have been some. I used to take my children there in my Series 2a, and always had a great amount of fun. I towed a few cars, and they were always grateful.
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In the Eighties we would bump start the Transit and Sherpa Box vans back to back, and a Merc' 7.5 Tonner once. Pushing the fully laden van off the loading bay was always fun 🤔
The shout of 'All Drivers report to loading bay for Morning exercise' always raised a wry smile, and a groan. 😁
I once witnessed a Disco' 2, with soft A-bar, on Race day in York, push an Aston Martin into a garage !
I have also towed a Viva at 70 Mph with my SD1 V8. Friend in Viva most definitely not impressed. I was young and indestructible. And foolish !
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I have also towed a Viva at 70 Mph with my SD1 V8. Friend in Viva most definitely not impressed. I was young and indestructible. And foolish !
I think back when were all a bit younger that sort of thing was par for the course! I remember my brother towed me in my broken down mini with his Mk 4 Cortina down a dual carriageway at 70mph on a 6 foot rope, and when we got to the garage complained that I'd had my foot on the brake !
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I towed my mate on his broken down Norton Commando with my Triumph Bonneville during rush hour around the Elephant & Castle roundabout and down the Old Kent Rd en route to Penge. Only fell off once right outside Penge nick, when I stopped at the lights and he thought I was going through, rope got caught round his wheel. A copper looked out & laughed as we picked his bike up .
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In 1970's. mate of mine towed me home with his S2 on a 6ft tow rope. I had just bought a LHD 2CV. I was unable to see anything (or regulate his speed) apart from occasional glimpse of a parked vehicle when I tried looking up his inside :agh (He still has S2 but 2CV is long gone)
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In 1970's. mate of mine towed me home with his S2 on a 6ft tow rope. I had just bought a LHD 2CV. I was unable to see anything (or regulate his speed) apart from occasional glimpse of a parked vehicle when I tried looking up his inside :agh (He still has S2 but 2CV is long gone)
Towing a 'bike is always a fete :o
Would all the electronic junk on modern vehicles permit it?
I have used this method a couple of times in vans to get me out of trouble.
In my own vehicle ? Only in an emergency.
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Towing a 'bike is always a fete :o
Hi,
Did I read, possibly more than 60 years ago, that a motorcycle may tow a broken down motor cycle ... possibly only to a place of safety?
Google says a motorcycle MAY tow another motorcycle, but some differences from towing with a car, in the advice given.
602
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Didn't they used to sell funny little trailers for motorbikes at one time? ( to be towed by the bike I mean)
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....towed my mate on his broken down Norton Commando with my Triumph Bonneville during rush hour around the Elephant & Castle roundabout ...
Hi,
OT, but was there a huge stainless steel structure in the middle of that roundabout? My father made the press tool, out of Araldite, for making the panels. I think the structure has since been moved to another location.
602
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Didn't they used to sell funny little trailers for motorbikes at one time? ( to be towed by the bike I mean)
Yes they did and still do ... you often see camping kit type trailers matched to the bike hooked on the back of the big touring biles, like Goldwings for example.
And there was a device made in Norfolk called a Side-Winder which was a license/cc buster that attached in place of a proper side car.
Subsequently the license laws for bikes have changed.
:bike-2
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Yes they did and still do ... you often see camping kit type trailers matched to the bike hooked on the back of the big touring biles, like Goldwings for example.
And there was a device made in Norfolk called a Side-Winder which was a license/cc buster that attached in place of a proper side car.
Subsequently the license laws for bikes have changed.
:bike-2
Yep, going a little off topic, but we see a few of them at some of the shows we go to, especially weekend camps at steam/classic/historic vehicle shows.
There are even a couple of folding campers towed behind the bigger bikes, which we've seen a few times at shows.
I nearly bought a Sidewinder for my Honda 250 SuperDream back in the late 70s - at the time you could ride up to 250cc on a bike learner licence, but any size cc with a sidecar - the Sidewinder was classed as a sidecar, even though it was just a frame and wheel, and would tilt with the bike.
I went for my full bike licence instead in the end.
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I rode a mate's 650 "chair outfit" a few times on my provisional licence back in the 70s... you pretty much never got a tug from Mr Plod back then anyway :)
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Hi,
According to Barbara's Hyundai iX20 (1600cc, but looks like a 1100cc model) handbook, it can tow 750cc unbraked.
Who am I to argue?
Can manufactures change such specifications retrospectively? If YES, can they increase the maximum weights? I have something in my mind (from the early 1970s) that unbraked? trailers were limited to two hundredweight (2cwt)
I have also read suggestions, more recently, that UK built (and other) 4x4s, imported from Japan (Google ALGYS AUTOS, do not have VIN plates, so have zilch towing capacity. ??? Is there any respective legislation over-riding such legislation for older vehicles.
602
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Morning 602,
A couple of points here.
Manufacturers cannot make retrospective changes to the vehicle specification due to homologation rules. Once homologated to a given market, that's it - no change permitted.
VIN plates. All vehicles built since 1979 must have the standard 17 digit VIN plate. It is a global standard which details the manufacturing country, model type, model year and so on. Japan is no different on this. If a vehicle has no VIN plate, it has no identity. No identity means a whole big can of worms.
The VIN plate itself will vary depending on the destination market, but does not have to state the towing capacity in most countries unless it is a specified requirement. What is usually mandatory on any VIN plate is the GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass) or individual axle weights. Information such as GTW (Gross Train Weight), Max Towing Capacity and draw bar max nose weight are not usually found cluttering up VIN plates. The reason for this is that so few passenger vehicles have a towing requirement. Tow packs are an option, not standard fit, so information is placed on the tow bar itself and in the owner's literature.
The UK rules on trailers for passenger vehicles is quite clear. The max you are allowed to tow as an unbraked trailer is 750kg. That said, that is the legal position. The position of individual manufacturers may differ and apply lower limits (or not permit towing at all). The issue now is that most modern vehicles have enhanced driver aids such as varying forms of stability controls. If you add a trailer, many vehicles now need to know a trailer is fitted to compensate for these systems. As this requires extensive and costly testing, you will find now that many vehicles don't have a tow bar option.
The moral of the story is to do the research and check the specifications of a given vehicle very carefully.
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For a bit of levity, here is todays Recovery task, at the gate into our neighbours. Tourists saw the gate and decided to turn around.... I tried to Tirfor it straight back using a tree as an anchor but unusually the Tirfor didn't shift it. The answer was a 90 degree tug from Tonka. Instant success...
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What’s the Scottish word for numpties because you seem to get a lot of them visiting up there?
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What’s the Scottish word for numpties because you seem to get a lot of them visiting up there?
We call them "Tourists"....
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We call them "Tourists"....
:first
In Wales, if you are doing something stupid and someone shouts "Dim moron" it actually means "no carrots"