S2C Forum Archives
Main Section => Welcome to our virtual Pub Meeting ... => Topic started by: Worf on November 03, 2019, 05:22:00 PM
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It happens on regularly on most "motor" forums (fora?) . Someone posts for the first time having just spent a lot of money buying a vehicle that they think is "rare", only to be told that at best, they have a "bitsa". They then disappear back into the ether, never to be heard of again (possibly selling it on quickly to some other simple soul?, or trying to sue whoever the bought it from)
Whilst we can all make mistakes, I really cant understand someone shelling out megabucks for any item, without doing a little bit of research as to whether it is "genuine" or not. There is so much knowledge and expertise on here and elsewhere (and people who would help by inspecting a vehicle if it is in their area), that appears to be going to waste.
Do we somehow need a higher profile, or should we just leave "a fool and his money" to make his own mistakes ??? Is it because people are just buying a vehicle as an "investment"?
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Did I miss these posts or did it happen on the old forum or Facebook? Sounded like an informative read.
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Interesting thought. Living near to Brightwells auctions, we often come across vehicles that people have purchased there. My old friend who has been repairing Landys since the sixties, often has people bringing such vehicles to him, for an "after purchase" inspection. Some are absolute horrors. If only these people took advice first.
A lot are paintwork resto's only, and buyers look no further.
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Did I miss these posts or did it happen on the old forum or Facebook? Sounded like an informative read.
There was one on here not that long ago (may have been the old forum), but the two most recent ones are on other forums.
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The question also arises when it comes to selling a vehicle that someone has inherited, or has been asked to dispose of, or simply doesn't know enough about the thing they are selling.
I've seen everything on here over the years, from people who have been told by someone that their LR is worth far more than it actually is, to the occasional naive seller who takes the first pm'd offer and sells far too cheaply, without getting advice.
The forum is here and we are willing to help.
However as always, you can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. :shakeinghead
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There is a seemingly lovely specimen at LRC Huddersfield on sale for nigh on £40K.This is described as Museum condition and as such may well be fairly priced.
Shirley anyone contemplating such a purchase would take professional advice. ??? As an example of what you're saying, you can lead a horse to water but a pencil must lead. (Stan Laurel)
Time for my medication I think. :stars
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There was one on here not that long ago (may have been the old forum), but the two most recent ones are on other forums.
One with lots of chrome, perhaps?
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One with lots of chrome, perhaps?
Possibly ;)
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Interesting thought. Living near to Brightwells auctions, we often come across vehicles that people have purchased there. My old friend who has been repairing Landys since the sixties, often has people bringing such vehicles to him, for an "after purchase" inspection. Some are absolute horrors. If only these people took advice first.
A lot are paintwork resto's only, and buyers look no further.
I agree auctions are often used as a means of offloading somewhat dubious vehicles to the uninformed, though to balance that in 2017 I bought a dismantled but very original and fairly sound 1963 military Mk8 FFR from a Brightwell's auction for £300.
Personally I find the whole "investment" idea quite repulsive and I believe the idea that any standard 2 or 2a is worth 30k+ to be farcical, in fact anything above 15k seems pretty unrealistic to me.
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I went to the Sherborne Classic Car Show in Somerset in July (not sure why our club doesn't attend as it is a massive event with loads of clubs). It includes an auction and I looked over a Series 1 and a classic Range Rover. You are correct - it's all about polish and paintwork. Do your due diligence before bidding
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I went to the Sherborne Classic Car Show in Somerset in July (not sure why our club doesn't attend as it is a massive event with loads of clubs).
Simply the club is run by volunteers, no one person in the club has a calendar or diary of every car show, autojumble, Land Rover event.
It is down to the local areas to decide if they want to attend an event.
Possible event attendance are maybe brought up at the pub meetings and if there is interest in an event the local area organiser will help, if bookings are needed or co-ordinate some sort of club stand/display.
Often, there is no great interest as maybe there's another equally popular event somewhere else.
I've been to shows where I'm the only club "representative". We have leaflets, cards and membership forms (though this can be done online in the field now :first ).
The area rep has access to club banners and signage etc.
If someone thinks there's a show or a classic car run going on - mention it to other local members and see if there's any interest in attending.
:cheers
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I'm off to the NEC next weekend, using the club discount :first, and as those who have been before and seen some of the cars and Land Rovers in the auction, very high prices and not always the best examples :agh
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I’ll be at the nec too. Can’t wait!
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Am I about to be one? I have a defender and had an Austin Gypsy when I was young but have never had a s2. There is 1961 one for sale for £20k in Peak District amd I am planning to drive 3 hours each way to have a look. Supposedly restored a few years ago but not seen any photos of restoration, is new chassis. Got a magnet to check panels. Plan to climb underneath for a good look. Any other suggestions? Thanks
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Think about it, look at adverts and save yourself £10,000.
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Thanks, but looking at ads suggest 10k will get me an unrestored reasonable condition but I need to pay more for a restored one. LRO price guide suggests the same...
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Got a magnet to check panels.
Most of the panels are non magnetic aluminium.
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Sorry, should have said bulkhead, foot wells and I think doors?
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Sorry, should have said bulkhead, foot wells and I think doors?
Door frames, but not skins/panels.
Sills are steel too, should be galvanised, not painted.
Best thing you can do is take some pictures and allow the forum to confirm things are all present and correct, or have a look at; https://www.series2club.co.uk/new_forum/index.php/topic,189.0.html
which is where my 20k would go if I had that sort of budget!
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Sorry, should have said bulkhead, foot wells and I think doors?
:thud
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Hi,
Something is worth what somebody else will pay for it! All our cars (and theirs) would be valueless if there was a sudden dearth of fuel to run them on ... which could happen at any moment (OK ... unlikely)
Having said that, surely it is a crime to pass something off for what it isn't? Maybe a bit of interest from Trading Standards would concentrate a few minds.
One ploy might be to demand a new MOT, paid for by the Vendor, but added to the price, or shared between Buyer and Seller (assuming the sale proceeds?)
It is worth doing an on-line MOT HISTORY check before viewing. If nothing else, a previously mentioned "advisory" that is missed by a later tester (would they be so silly) should concentrate some minds. Could that be why some vendors are reluctant to reveal the registration mark ... a lap-top/kindle could be a useful addition to your tool box.
602
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I don't think the market is what it was a couple of years ago. I think you could pay less (a lot less) than £20k for a very nice S2.
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As someone once said, “A fool and their money are soon parted.”
Never buy a vehicle without the paperwork, even if it’s free!
If you’re selling, a fresh MoT will help the sale (even if it’s MoT exempt).
Never buy blind, inspect the vehicle or send an agent to look and report back.
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Keep looking - note adverts that look interesting and see how long they've been there then go and look at the vehicle if you really are interested. No offers - go and look - 'shame you won't take offers - as I'd have offered £xxxxx'
Don't be in a hurry - if its good - you can insist on your expert looking - but remember he's not going to dismantle it - and if he's not convinced its really good he's going to say no - that's what you're asking him to do!
Some vendors will tell you that someone's looked at it and said (eg) 'that misfire is only carburettor idle' This is not a good guide. Think about it - you go and see someone's pride and joy and to you its a heap of ****. You're simply going to make your excuses (which may be far from true or the whole story) and leave.
Ask around - someone may be able to give you a lead - but be considerate - if someone isn't considering selling he's not necessarily going to be happy to go to a load of trouble at that time and may simply withdraw if he's pushed.
To get top price it must be REALLY good - ie starting and stopping properly, nice and straight and largely original - no turbo, TDi or 2.5 litre engines etc. These may well make a better vehicle but when it comes to selling collectables originality is king - and well maintained and smart original is worth more than what amounts to a virtually new vehicle.
I think the USA and some other countries get funny about galvanised chassis as they weren't original - but a repaired steel chaissis is OK. Now which is stronger? Defies logic doesn't it - but rules is rules.
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The first question you need to ask yourself is are you a "rivet counter", if not and you just want a usable classic then keep an open mind, use the forum for advance but don't get bogged down in too much detail, as long as the basics are there you can pretty much do as you want.
As for the "More Money Than Sense Mob" yes had first hand experience with a couple of these characters, very much in your face, quiet intimidating and also worrying as to the lengths these people will go, in fact I checked for a tracker just in case. :agh :agh
Have you looked at Miles3 Land Rover - https://www.series2club.co.uk/new_forum/index.php/topic,189.msg18448.html#new
RobS
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Thanks everybody for comments. About to see it, will investigate paperwork and take photos. I too like what Miles has done, but have my heart set on rag top.
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Am I about to be one? I have a defender and had an Austin *&%^$ when I was young but have never had a s2. There is 1961 one for sale for £20k in Peak District amd I am planning to drive 3 hours each way to have a look. Supposedly restored a few years ago but not seen any photos of restoration, is new chassis. Got a magnet to check panels. Plan to climb underneath for a good look. Any other suggestions? Thanks
At that money I'd want an absolutely correct vehicle - do a ton of research to find out exactly what a vehicle of that vintage looked like. Not my cup of tea really, I'd rather have something worth a lot less that I'd not mind getting muddy and scratched shifting logs. That's the joy of this Club, the mix of people and vehicles.
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I too like what Miles has done, but have my heart set on rag top.
You can swap the roof in a couple of hours :cheers
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My opinion (for what it's worth) and to coin a phrase my old nan used to use, 'God helps those who help themselves'. Which in this case I use to mean if you really want to buy a top drawer classic vehicle of any make and ensure that you are not being ripped off and buying a lemon, then you HAVE to do the hard miles and research your subject.
If you are prepared to do this, and ask lots of questions, research books, speak with people on forums etc. then over time you will build yourself enough knowledge to ensure you know what you are looking at in the vast majority of cases.
Lets put the issue of money aside, if you have the funds and want to buy the vehicle, then you are going to do so. Where it usually goes wrong is that buyers go about things the wrong way around. They save up over a long period or are lucky to have the money come available and they suddenly see what they think is the perfect vehicle and rush into buying it.
What they should do, is during the period they are saving up they should do their homework/research, so that when the money is eventually available they have the knowledge to make a wise purchase.
More difficult is when the money suddenly becomes available, they don't have the patience to wait until they build their knowledge, leaving the money in the bank until they are ready.
I myself was a good example of the former. Many years ago at the ripe old age of 22 I decided that I HAD to own a 101 Forward Control. However, I had no money. So I started to save, bit by bit. At the beginning of this process, I joined the 101 club, researched lots of books and attended lots of club events and spoke to lots of owners and pored over their vehicles at shows. I attended the military auctions where they were sold, learned what made a 'good one' and what didn't.
After three years of saving (and more importantly learning), I finally got my finances in a position to afford what I now knew 'good ones' sold for. At that time there were still some being released through military auctions, so that is where I looked and found an extremely good example, of the most sought after spec. and bought it, safe in the knowledge that I knew what I was looking at.
27 years later, I still own the vehicle, which is extremely original, never been welded and is probably worth in excess of 10 times what I paid for it.
The title of this topic is therefore correct. Most people, when they have the money do not apply the sense. If they did, they would take their time, learn their subject and buy when they are sufficiently educated to make a knowledgeable decision.
Ian
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Looking at the PVG advert, there is another link to a different vehicle. I guess this one is a Series 3 with a swapped front and a potentially illegally transposed reg ?
https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1012240 (https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1012240)
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Looking at the PVG advert, there is another link to a different vehicle. I guess this one is a Series 3 with a swapped front and a potentially illegally transposed reg ?
https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1012240 (https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1012240)
That is reasonably close to me, it has been on eBay for a long time, I think it’s a fair price, there must be something dodgy to be putting people off it, as you say, there is a lot of series 3 in there?
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Looking at the PVG advert, there is another link to a different vehicle. I guess this one is a Series 3 with a swapped front and a potentially illegally transposed reg ?
https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1012240 (https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1012240)
Long established trader. Mot says 1971, tax (untaxed) says 1959. Plate raped. May be legit ex military ??? Would need a thorough inspection, but I probably wouldn't touch it.
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Thank you everybody for the comments. The bodywork has been done very well, bolting some plates on the bottom of the bulkhead to replace bits that have been removed, the chassis very sound, and no bubbling paintwork anywhere. Looks like door sills were all replaced. Wiring still the old. Diffs and swivel joints all good. Drove very well, and all gears worked as should. Main concern is more oil leaks from the geqrbox\engine join, and what I think is the transfer box than I expected.. did take loads of photos but not easy to see. Also minor leak from steering box. The paperwork is minimal and that is annoying and a small concern...the gearbox was reconditioned in 1990 and hasn’t done many miles since so surprised by the leaks.
Think I will send Miles a PM...
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As far as oil leaks go, that looks pretty good to me :-X :-X :-X
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The bulkhead work isn't acceptable on a 20k vehicle.
A PM to miles might be the best thing you do this year
Good luck!
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The bulkhead work isn't acceptable on a 20k vehicle.
A PM to miles might be the best thing you do this year
Good luck!
For that sort of money I would expect a vehicle that was better than when it left the factory, certainly not with bodged footwells.
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I have seen PGV 'in the flesh' and I can honestly say that if I was in the market for a genuine, original vehicle it is the best one that I know of currently for sale.
However, to the OP, before parting with any cash for -any- vehicle, can I suggest you answer the following questions to yourself:
1. What do you want to do with it? If it is an occasional use vehicle for the pleasure of owning it, mainly for gentle pootling about on local back roads and a bit of light off-road use on green lanes or to reach the other side of a field, I would go for something very original. I would also be nice to take to shows etc. If however you want a daily use vehicle, I would want to upgrade various things to make them more user friendly. Probably the brakes because they are easier to work on and modern traffic doesn't make much allowance when shuffling in the queue in the rush hour, maybe heated screens to make it easier to get going in the morning etc. I would also expect to put significant wear and tear on to the engine and other mechanicals so pretty soon, that which gives it its rarity and appeal would need to be changed, so I would get something where that had less of an impact - maybe something well rebuilt on a galvanised chassis and bulkhead so I knew I shouldn't have major corrosion issues for a long time. I would be less worried about engine swaps - it has been done once so gearing up to have a standby engine and gearbox to hand to keep it running would be a practical move and not sacrifice anything. If I wanted to do serious offroading then other mods would be options and I would also be accepting it would get dented and scratched so if I wanted it to look respectable it would need regular repainting. That means any patina built up over decades would soon be gone.
2. Where can you keep it? They are robust and will survive outside with nothing, but original paintwork will then degrade further. Something which has already been repainted is then more practical if you need to do it again as you aren't losing anything. If you have a cart lodge or barn to keep it in then original paintwork will keep a lot better.
3. Who will be travelling in it? Seat belts are not a requirement, but may be one for your family circumstances. This will also determine what you want in the way of side bench seats in the tub.
4. Tops - completely interchangeable by one person, so as long as you have storage space you can have as many different options as you want and even go topless in summer :agh There was a red one near here named Jezebel which was topless all year.
I am sure there are more questions/points to consider which others could add, but hopefully this helps frame your thinking. I would very much echo the other comments made about ensuring paperwork is complete. Based on some of the comments you have made, I suggest you are not very experienced with this make/model. If possible, I strongly suggest taking someone with you to take a look but at very least, keep posting photos of things you are considering (except PGV where I think Richard has already posted enough to convince everyone that it's lovely) and you will get an opinion on what is 'right' and what is not, or at least deserves further investigation.
Alec
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Thank you everybody for the comments. The bodywork has been done very well, bolting some plates on the bottom of the bulkhead to replace bits that have been removed, the chassis very sound, and no bubbling paintwork anywhere. Looks like door sills were all replaced. Wiring still the old. Diffs and swivel joints all good. Drove very well, and all gears worked as should. Main concern is more oil leaks from the gearbox\engine join, and what I think is the transfer box than I expected.. did take loads of photos but not easy to see. Also minor leak from steering box. The paperwork is minimal and that is annoying and a small concern...the gearbox was reconditioned in 1990 and hasn’t done many miles since so surprised by the leaks.
Think I will send Miles a PM...
Based on your comments above and the photo's posted I would certainly give Miles a call - he's got a complete thread which gives you all the details you need. https://www.series2club.co.uk/new_forum/index.php/topic,289.0.html
Rob.
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Stick, no-one has actually said it, but you have done exactly the right thing - you've asked for advice BEFORE buying.
Precisely what Worf was on about, in the original post.
Well done!
All you need to do now is act on that advice. ;)
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:o
I just typed a long response, and hit submit, and the forum had kicked me out and lost the text. As a new member the default is to kick you out after 60 mins. Is that just to make you feel at home with a S2? ;)
More briefly
Thank you everyone for your comments. To agg's questions
I already have a disco and a defender so this wont have heavy use off-road or commuting. Garaged. You are right, I am not familiar with s2's. I drove a s3 for a while when young, and had a 1963 Austin G"ypsy (hope im not the only one that finds it funny that the s2 site cannot acknowledge the Austins existence by editing the name ;))which I did some work on under guidance. However I do not have the knowledge or experience to look after one of these. I use an Independent LR garage for the disco and defner and would use them for a s2.
I would like to do a few longer trips. I imagine that about 45 is the max on standard tyres. I would think that is scary on major roads. What do people find? Only stick to back roads? Do peeps have another set of wheels with bigger tyres on to improve the gearing, and swap them as required? I would also like to learn enough to be able to do basic maintenance/adjustment/problem solving to make longer journeys realistic.
RobS :I have just read the 36 pages of Miles's restoration. Humbled. And in awe. We are in contact.
My wife thinks im mad. I think a lot of you do too...
Exile : thank you. A great forum, friendly, helpful and lots of advice. What more could one ask for?
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Don't be too hard on the S2s ability to travel distances, I did well over 1200 miles round trip to get from Scotland to the Club Rally in Devon last year. I averaged 55-60 most of the way, Motorway and dual carriageway, with a standard and probably fairly tired 2.25 petrol on 7.50 tyres and returned 21mpg. I even over took some people :-). For reasons of age and having the dog with me, I decided to stop each day at about the 250-300 mile point for an overnight but the younger me would probably have just pushed on....
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Hi,
A point that some may consider to be pertinent ...
L&V do/did a very attractive fully comp insurance premium(£50?) for classic vehicles doing low mileage (sub-5,000mpa?) .... BUT ....
it must be garaged over-night. Other insurers may have similar requirements. (Will your insurers accept the vendor's valuation?)
So ... will your expensive S2 fit in your garage?
Hmmm! I have room for another garage, 40ft long in my front/side garden (wasted space)... but will my planners allow it? The corresponding house opposite has a garage, between the side of the house and the next road, shown on the 1980s PP map for the "estate", so might be worth a punt.
602
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Hi Stick.
Glad you have made contact, seems daft not too certainly when you have looked at something that's a little disappointing.
Firstly have you joined the club, it's the best £21 you can invest, it will open up other avenues into local meets etc plus other more detailed information and a great quarterly club magazine :cool
As for driving, well that's a unique experience any way, I've got 205 tyres fitted to Wolf rims with parabolic springs so a little more comfortable, if you want a higher cruising speed you can fit an overdrive, perfectly acceptable and in keeping with the historic feel of the Land Rover.
Oil leaks are a way of life ???, you can slow them down :RHD, even change where they come from :thud, but that's part of owning a Land Rover of this age :first
I really hope you find what you are looking for, where are you based as there might be some like minded owners near to you.
Good luck
Rob. :cheers
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I would like to do a few longer trips. I imagine that about 45 is the max on standard tyres. I would think that is scary on major roads. What do people find? Only stick to back roads? Do peeps have another set of wheels with bigger tyres on to improve the gearing, and swap them as required? I would also like to learn enough to be able to do basic maintenance/adjustment/problem solving to make longer journeys realistic.
Did about 3000 miles driving to Spain in my old 109. Tried to stay on smaller roads where possible, less because of safety and more because motorways are really, really boring. I kind of cheated with a 200tdi and overdrive, but I'd have no problems doing a similar mileage with a standard setup - just slower! As long as it's well maintained and you've got a few tools with you for emergencies, it's all good. Oh, and maybe some earplugs.
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I have a diesel, so the slowest of the slow, and find that fine driving on A roads...trundles along fine at 50, although hills do have a noticeable effect on maintaining speed.
I was in a similar position to yourself a few years ago when looking around. Similar budget and wanted something I could use from the off without having to constantly be taking it into the garage for repair work. Was lucky enough to find a good one that had been restored by Jim Gardner, who has an excellent reputation. People on this site shared their thoughts, knowledge and guidance with me on the proposed vehicle before I took the plunge.
One thing I would add, if someone is claiming that a vehicle has been subject to a thorough restoration, I would expect to see copious photos of the work being undertaken, and to a large extent that should give you comfort regarding the quality of underlying workmanship.
Unfortunately when I was looking around Richard was not looking to sell PGV; had timing been different I would certainly have been very interested, and he has clearly done a very thorough job...easily converted back to a tilt (also what I was after).
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Jim Gardner does excellent work, he is a club member and always willing to help. There is a combined NW area meet and open day at his new workshop tomorrow.
Peter