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Main Section => Welcome to our virtual Pub Meeting ... => Topic started by: 2286 on November 05, 2022, 12:01:12 PM
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I have just been to the new defender site via the rugby world cup site. Then to the Ineos site.
Just a brief look shows that the Grenadier is not going to be the low priced item we had been told it would be.
The prices for each start in a similar place.
So which would you plump for with your own money?
There is also a heritage exploiting 75th edition defender!
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If you need something that rugged, then the Grenadier every time I'm afraid. Designed for the job.
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Since Ineos pulled out of building their vehicle in South Wales after much inital fanfare and promises I wouldn't buy one on principle.
However having said that I'm not really attracted to either vehicle to be honest ( and yes I can afford to buy one ! ) :tiphat
I'll stick with my Series vehicle plus a eurobox and go on lots of cruises :RHD :essen
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Neither. Automatic transmission is a no no and all that electronic junk.......??.
Manual gearbox and minimal electronic, electronic ignition excepted. Series rules.
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so I've sat in both (not driven) and I can say that I would not buy either (don't have that kind of money to spend) but the defender interior seemed much better put together. Whilst the roof mounted switch console in the infos appeals to the small body in me, I'm not really sure how practical it really is and for me personally (5'8") I found the ergonomics questionable. The defender was much better in this regard.
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If you need something that rugged, then the Grenadier every time I'm afraid. Designed for the job.
But who actually needs a vehicle that rugged, not many people I suspect, but no doubt many people will convince themselves that they do. It’s too costly to be a work vehicle for most, so the price puts it more inline with luxury SUVs.
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Me neither :shakeinghead
Land Rover = appalling reliability :shakeinghead
Ineos = too soon to say how reliable and repairs costs.
:RHD
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I was hoping that the Grenadier would be worth waiting for but from what I’ve seen so far it’s just ugly. So the defender would be my choice provided it doesn’t come with that stupid external suitcase..
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Well this is pretty impressive seeing as how much of it is 'glued' together
https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/20286190/watch-as-land-rover-hits-car-on-the-motorway/
Not sure how a Series would have fared :shakeinghead
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Well this is pretty impressive seeing as how much of it is 'glued' together
https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/20286190/watch-as-land-rover-hits-car-on-the-motorway/
Not sure how a Series would have fared :shakeinghead
That is highly impressive!
Chris.
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I've no strong opinion on the new Defender or Grenadier as I have no intention of buying any more vehicles, but if forced I'd go for the Grenadier as it's closer to the old Defender than the new one is. Neither are true utility vehicles, but the Grenadier is,closer to one than the new Defender is, and we may yet see pickups etc. Still, too expensive for fleet buyers unless they offer some massive discounts?
As to the accident video, obviously a series would he obliterated, but would probably not get up to those sorts of speeds anyway, and how safe is any 50+ year old car anyway?
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All I will say is that having driven not far off 12,000km over the past two years in Grenadiers and about 1/2 that in extreme off road conditions, had I got the money to buy either, it would be the Grenadier all day every day. An absolutely phenominal vehicle and I absolutely love driving them and all mine are prototypes! Closest to the original Defender and built like a tank. The New Defender is an incredibly capable vehicle and head to head I'm sure there are functions that each will do better than the other.
If you do a direct feature comparison at each price level, you will see that the Grenadier is cheaper and has a great deal more on offer as standard. BMW Engines, ZF Transmission, Carraro axles, Eaton locking diffs and the whole lot engineered by Magna Styr is a pretty impressive lineup.
Yes... I do currently work for INEOS and have been doing consultancy for them since early 2018 having worked for Land Rover for 30 years. In my view, the Grenadier is a worthy sucessor for the old Defender and yes - there are plenty of people who really do use these vehicle in extreme arduous conditions. Plenty will buy it to pose with, but there is a huge core fleet requirement where the current Defender does not meet their requirements.
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They do look like a well put together chunky tough vehicle, and I do like the look.
Does the front view resemble the G Wagan ???
Only time will tell how Grenadier look in the second-hand market & what their depreciation value will be.
And the Defender, from what I`ve heard, it has too many electronically controlled critical systems, have you heard the saying, No Knickers & a Fur Coat? Does that apply to the Defender ???
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A stripped out 3 door lwb Grenadier, sold at a discount rate would no doubt be snapped up by the various,fleets now struggling with d-max and hiluxes doing stuff they were never designed for. But utilities ideally want chassis cabs, not station wagons or crew cabs. This is where I fear ineos have hedged their bets by taking the lifestyle path rather than utility. But I'll be interested to see how it pans out. Sadly the days of commercial/utility products from JLR are long gone and almost certainly will not return, but will putting their eggs in one basket make sense long term?
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There is a chassis cab in the offing as is a double cab pickup. Modification for utility usuage is a key driver in the design concept.
There isn't ( and won't be) a 3 door LWB utility. The Utility will be based on the 5 door SW and retains 5 doors. I had a 2 seat utility during August / September. Masses of space and I think I way overloaded it. Didn't give me any problems though.
As regards reliability time will tell, but as a life long Land Rover fan (still am) and a beliver in the Grenadier, I would rather cross Africa in a Grenadier prototype than a current Defender. At least I know that like an old Defender, I stand some chance of fixing a Grenadier.
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Geoff
whilst what you say about the vehicle being destined to be built in wales and then not is a kick in the teeth for those hoping to work there, that comes down to politics, I fear. It should not be the decider, the land rover I think is built in eastern europe not lode lane.
Alan Drover
the list of items that you can buy that dont have tech or complexity rammed into them is dwindling by the minute.
Whilst I would have little or non as I am a luddite, those not fortunate enough to already have a series alternative or through age, illness or injury unable to operate one have got to bite the bullet, so to speak.
Worf and Mark Harvey
Re heavy duty, do ineos hope to corner utility company market rather than private car hence the wheelbases and body types offered.
I agree that they both take some stomach to look at, the land rover having been glitzed beyond belief, chrome plastic and piano black overload with styling nods to those that have gone before. The grenadier is a function over form.
The thing is that we are all so accustomed to a land rovers looks that they both shock and or repulse.
Diffwhine
Are they company cars or test mules, do they have zebra paint work and bits of tent nailed on as I did not think the vehicle had officially launched.
BMW Engines, ZF Transmission, Carraro axles, Eaton locking diffs and the whole lot engineered by Magna Styr is a pretty impressive lineup.
I recognise these names from the world or tractors (carraro made front axle for most 4x4 tractors of the late 70's and early 80's including leyland/marshall, ford and so on. The larger output tractors had ZF). Eaton made truck gearboxes and two speed axles I know them from foden and erf. Styr gave us the panda 4x4 in collaboration with puch.
Carraro are or were italian, bmw german, Styr austrian? Eaton transmissions I always thought were british? So a just in time material planners nightmare.
I agree the new defender is unlikely to make fleet , in any great numbers.
Grenadier still puts me in mind of UMM alter! With some G wagon too.
The more stripped back and basic and cheaper will I suspect get the most market share.
Lets not forget series and coil sprung have their flaws but we rate them all the same.
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Carraro still make axles for the likes of John Deere, JCB amongst others.
Probably best if you look at the Grenadier website for detail on this. It is most certainly not like a UMM Alter. Its been tested in public for two years now. Only very early prototypes werre stripped up. Retail launch is soon - full series production started recently.
Stripped back and basic I'm afrad does not sell - tahts the pickup market. Commercial vehicles built to last and serve a purpose can command a permium which justifies the qulaity of the components. As regards the material planning issue, no manufacturer builds stuff in house any more. It all coms in from global external suppliers - hence the current chip shortage.
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A pity there will be no 3 door option, I don't quite,see a 5 door being so desirable as you can't then fit roller sides for tool access. I suspect if a two door chassis cab is offered then a pod body could be applied, as that's what happens with the D-max etc.
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I really should spell check my posts... More typos in that than on the BBC News website...
A chassis cab will be the longer term obvious solution.
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Price it right and the utilities can finally get something other than D maxes which are not really designed for that kind of work.
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Diffwhine
I did have a look on the website but found it very much like land rovers own. In that you build a vehicle to suit adding bells whistles and cost with the tech detail, which you have listed more than I found!
Way back when tractors were transitioning from 2wd to 4wd and carraro made the axles parts were hard to source and expensive, but that said parts for follow italian brand fiat were the same expensive and hard to come by. This lead to cobble ups and running things until they would run no more! Farm I worked on had fiat 540 2wd, 850 2wd and 450 4wd, they were all lashed together.
What I meant by the umm alter comment was a re-engined in their case the excellent (in 505 anyway) 2.5 peugeot engine, they had land rover chassis and axles (or have I misremembered that) and flat panel. The ineos bulkhead angle and vent delete and larger than def1 screen. Also has a bonnet slope, not as savage as umm but its there.
The van version using a 5 door is like what lr did with the disco van.
Utility firms are clinging to aging battered lr still in fleet as they are superior to the d-max that seems out of its depth wearing a cherry picker or a box body on the terrain that they tackle. The unimog whilst capable being a touch big and expensive.
I do understand that if drivers have known nothing but tech in vehicles then if you dont spec it like that then you won't sell them. But there comes a point when cabin goodies become too much.
Just seen the rear access is by enequal size doors, a la isuzu trooper.
Re spec it says bmw engine zf box and thats all, are you going to get rapped for intellectual property disclosure.
Do eaton make to transfer box?
How many diff locks and how are they engaged, or is it all a colour coded diagram on the screen overwhich there is no human input or choice?
I just like to know what things have, how it works and so on then you can make a decision from there.
Given the phase out of diesel I suspect there is or will be an electric version if there is not already.
I have had a look more in depth and its heavy too and thirsty. Maybe take out the twin alpine lights and mr2 front roof and focus on the payload and tow capacity.
The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, we will have to see how it sells, but lr despite the price seem to be gaining ground and have the jump as its out there on sale.
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No all - the specs and origins are in the public domain. Most was covered by Mark Evans in his "Building the Grenadier" series. The transfer box is bespoke, but made by Tramec.
Personally I'd suggest that the front end / bonnet line looks far more G-Wagen than UMM.
Standard centre diff lock. Axle diff locks are optional. Most people don't need them as traction control will do most of the job quite happily - you might just get through brake pads a tad fast. Centre diff lock is engaged by a simple lever as per LR and others. The axle locks are engaged by switches in the roof panel.
Anyway - its built now and heading to market and I can't change anything! Having just this morning jumped in and out of several Grenadiers and then come home in a taty old TD5 110, all I can say is that had I got available funds, I'd buy one like a shot (a Grenadier that is, not yet another tatty TD5 110). As it is, I have more pressing priorities, so will just have to keep being paid to drive other people's Grenadiers!.
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Geoff
whilst what you say about the vehicle being destined to be built in wales and then not is a kick in the teeth for those hoping to work there, that comes down to politics, I fear. It should not be the decider, the land rover I think is built in eastern europe not lode lane.
Alan Drover
the list of items that you can buy that dont have tech or complexity rammed into them is dwindling by the minute.
Whilst I would have little or non as I am a luddite, those not fortunate enough to already have a series alternative or through age, illness or injury unable to operate one have got to bite the bullet, so to speak.
Worf and Mark Harvey
Re heavy duty, do ineos hope to corner utility company market rather than private car hence the wheelbases and body types offered.
I agree that they both take some stomach to look at, the land rover having been glitzed beyond belief, chrome plastic and piano black overload with styling nods to those that have gone before. The grenadier is a function over form.
The thing is that we are all so accustomed to a land rovers looks that they both shock and or repulse.
Diffwhine
Are they company cars or test mules, do they have zebra paint work and bits of tent nailed on as I did not think the vehicle had officially launched.
BMW Engines, ZF Transmission, Carraro axles, Eaton locking diffs and the whole lot engineered by Magna Styr is a pretty impressive lineup.
I recognise these names from the world or tractors (carraro made front axle for most 4x4 tractors of the late 70's and early 80's including leyland/marshall, ford and so on. The larger output tractors had ZF). Eaton made truck gearboxes and two speed axles I know them from foden and erf. Styr gave us the panda 4x4 in collaboration with puch.
Carraro are or were italian, bmw german, Styr austrian? Eaton transmissions I always thought were british? So a just in time material planners nightmare.
I agree the new defender is unlikely to make fleet , in any great numbers.
Grenadier still puts me in mind of UMM alter! With some G wagon too.
The more stripped back and basic and cheaper will I suspect get the most market share.
Lets not forget series and coil sprung have their flaws but we rate them all the same.
Eaton supply after market geaboxes for lots of trucks.
I have a friend who many years ago moved from their factory north of manchester to open the brand new factory in St Nazaire. Their main business there to start with was to supply gearboxes fitted as after market to Renault trucks that were deivered to a depot from the factory, the Renault box was removed and the Eaton box fitted as renault wouldnt supply new trucks with eaton boxes.
Peter
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No all - the specs and origins are in the public domain. Most was covered by Mark Evans in his "Building the Grenadier" series. The transfer box is bespoke, but made by Tramec.
Personally I'd suggest that the front end / bonnet line looks far more G-Wagen than UMM.
Standard centre diff lock. Axle diff locks are optional. Most people don't need them as traction control will do most of the job quite happily - you might just get through brake pads a tad fast. Centre diff lock is engaged by a simple lever as per LR and others. The axle locks are engaged by switches in the roof panel.
Anyway - its built now and heading to market and I can't change anything! Having just this morning jumped in and out of several Grenadiers and then come home in a taty old TD5 110, all I can say is that had I got available funds, I'd buy one like a shot (a Grenadier that is, not yet another tatty TD5 110). As it is, I have more pressing priorities, so will just have to keep being paid to drive other people's Grenadiers!.
I read that too quickly or have dyslexia I thought it said transfer box by TARMAC!
Jimny grille, umm screen bulkhead trooper rear as g never had two doors.
So what bits do Eaton contribute?
I did note the switches on the roof, but thought that would be the top of the range only as brochures tend to focus on.
I dont need to tell you that lr product was flawed and showing its age and frailty have been underfunded and made to borrow from the parts bins.
Bmw engine, zf (similar or same as range rover) is going to be worlds away.
Suspension is 5 link too according to the blurb, are the axles beam f and r if at all?
Is the mark evans doc only on posh tv channels as yet not freeview or similar.
Romahome, I had it in my mind that eatons primary market these days is the usa?
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May well be I am.going back quite a few years. I believe they closed the Manchester factory at that time. The St Nazaire factory was a brand new purpose built factory
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You can watch the episodes here:
https://ineosgrenadier.com/en/gb/explore/the-grenadier-videos-and-stories/building-the-grenadier
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Hearing some horror stories about the current Ingenium JLR engines. Timing chain failure at 30,000 miles and a nightmare to fix even with the "specialist tools". Lost the plot after 300tdi.
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I read that too quickly or have dyslexia I thought it said transfer box by TARMAC!
Jimny grille, umm screen bulkhead trooper rear as g never had two doors.
So what bits do Eaton contribute?
I did note the switches on the roof, but thought that would be the top of the range only as brochures tend to focus on.
I dont need to tell you that lr product was flawed and showing its age and frailty have been underfunded and made to borrow from the parts bins.
Bmw engine, zf (similar or same as range rover) is going to be worlds away.
Suspension is 5 link too according to the blurb, are the axles beam f and r if at all?
Is the mark evans doc only on posh tv channels as yet not freeview or similar.
Romahome, I had it in my mind that eatons primary market these days is the usa?
Eaton supply the locking differentials for the Cararo axles. All pretty solid robust stuff
Yes- 5 link suspesnion and beam axles front and rear. Incredibly stable on the road and mind-blowingly impressive off road. I know just a bit about offf road driving and have driven pretty much every 4x4 available over the last 50 years or so and my recent off road driving experience really blew me away.
I learned many years ago to never knock the opposition. The Defender is also a phenominal beast - just too high tech for me. I used to run a technical support team for Land Rover and many of the people who worked for me now work as master techs in various dealers all over the world. I get scared when thye struggle to fix them and these are people with decades of JLR experience. And we will say no more about the Ingenium engine please - it leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. Suffice to say that I would never, ever, ever, ever have one unless somebody else was paying for my engine changes...
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You can watch the episodes here:
https://ineosgrenadier.com/en/gb/explore/the-grenadier-videos-and-stories/building-the-grenadier
Thanks I will have a look.
Worf Is that chain failure due to oil starvation, or not being heavy duty enough. Either way if its not an isolated case, due to bad batch or qc it is going to gain bad reputation.
Diffwhine
Are the diff locks air or electric actuated?
I had double take on what axle type was used axle the rear end pictured had a bash plate, skid guard and phenomenal ground clearance, the 17" wheel would help that.
I am totally in agreement that until something has been experienced first hand it should not be judged. People slated suzuki sj and jimny, but they go places that you would not expect. Albeit in a slightly different way. The early jimny had a full mechanical transfer, then for some reason they opted to go for an electric mag clutch or similar, meaning that if the vehicle stalled then it deselected and sometimes would not re-engage.
Would you agree that unimog is the best if cost is no object and off road is your bread and butter.
With a thought to utility companies, land rover offered the ready equipped defender through special vehicles department. I appreciate that was some years back but the price tag on those was close to starting base vehicle price on def2 and gren.
Also given the start weight of gren, what will gvw be with a platform on the back? Has it been trialled or considered.
Along the same lines what scope is there for pto for gren and def2. Are we looking at underbonnet engine take offs only?
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I can't answer all those questions but...
Diff locks are electric - solenoid activated.
Unimog - yes, but big - too big for most people.
Pricing is aimed at special vehicle builds, not fleet utility volume - you can't compete with cheap pickups which suit most (not all I agree) users. You build a special vehicle and the premium is on longetivity to get your return.
Platform and so on - I don't know yet - its part of ongoing discussions.
No to PTOs - most systems these days use electric hydraulic pumps, so no need for a transmission or engine drive. Even fire engines can run this way nowadays.
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Thanks I will have a look.
Worf Is that chain failure due to oil starvation, or not being heavy duty enough. Either way if its not an isolated case, due to bad batch or qc it is going to gain bad reputation.
Timing chain gone on a 30000 mile engine is just one of the probs. There are plenty more.
JLR franchised garages are farming out the work to independent specialists (or just replacing the whole engine)
This guy really know his stuff and it still took him 3 days. Somebody actually got paid for designing that :stars
Enjoy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmidk2JF5jQ
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Neither, for all the reasons given by others here. JLR just make luxury SUVs that are unreliable and extremely expensive to buy and own. Grenadier made a huge thing about them being made in Britain, then betrayed us. Neither are British cars and neither do much for our economy.
It has made me wonder what I would buy instead, if I wanted a modern Defender-a-like and was rolling in money.
I like the look of the new mini Jeep, especially in Burnt Orange. And I like the Suzuki Jimny, although it seems both rare and very expensive in the UK. I do like boxy cars.
I also quite liked a ride I had in a Skoda Yeti, they seem like quite well designed cars. My father and sister have both bought new Dacia Dusters and like them.
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I have noticed possibly due to def1 reaching the end of their shelf life (if there is such a point), the shortage of used vehicles and the reluctance in up take in def2 that farmers locally are using rr, rr sport, disco, and reverting back to Japanese pick ups, crew cabs. This is happening in similar numbers to when the s3 got left behind at the start of the 80's prior to the 90/110 launch.
The difference now is that they dont rust out like they used to and parts availability and prices are not as bad again to the 80's.
Suzuki used to offer a lwb sj, if they were to offer a scaled up jimny in a range of wheelbase, I think as long as prices are keen they could clean up.
The duster again used to be very robust and lr like rather than monocoque car like.
I was about to throw lada niva in to mix but apparently, they cease production 2023.
Re Ingenium it sounds like, they need to blanket retrofit and issue recalls to head off a class action from owners.
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Got to be honest, if I’m in a position to buy a new Grenadier when my current pickup is due for change (in about a year or so) I won’t hesitate.
I went on the website and built one to my spec ticking a LOT of the options boxes and it came out including VAT around £63k. That is only 3 grand more than my pickup was in 2019 and a lot cheaper than an equivalent Defender
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Timing chain gone on a 30000 mile engine is just one of the probs. There are plenty more.
JLR franchised garages are farming out the work to independent specialists (or just replacing the whole engine)
So we don't mention the inherent design flaws that mean excessive dilution of engine oil with diesel due to the DPF regeneration cycles being either repeatedly incomplete or just simply excessive for the driving cycles they were doing?
And that reportedly for early service lights coming on JLR were reprogramming the ECU to allow for higher dilution rates of the oil before triggering the light?
Alongside the timing chains there is a big concern with balance shaft bearings wearing soon giving a nice engine speed related whine a bit like a supercharger.
Also some reports of turbos too.
A defiantly we won't mention a certain main dealer who at one point mentioned he had 16 dead ingeniums sat on the workshop floor all in the process of being renewed.
:thud
IMO a perfect storm of a car manufacturer trying to play the platform powerplant option, in a world of daft regulations blinkered on ever tightening diesel regulations.
JLR have had some bad engine design features (Plastic TD5 head dowls, or misaligned TDI front pulleys or the manufactured not cast early crank timing pulleys that munched belts, or the K series Headgasket saga) But the ingenium is a current dumpster fire that's just getting going.
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Neither, for all the reasons given by others here. JLR just make luxury SUVs that are unreliable and extremely expensive to buy and own. Grenadier made a huge thing about them being made in Britain, then betrayed us. Neither are British cars and neither do much for our economy.
It has made me wonder what I would buy instead, if I wanted a modern Defender-a-like and was rolling in money.
Hard to really criticise Ineos on changing their minds about where to build the car. If you have two options, one of which is a muddy field and the other is a brand new already built automotive factory begging for use then it’s genuinely a no brainier.
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The field was only muddy after they broke ground and the infrastructure started to be laid.
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Neither, for all the reasons given by others here. JLR just make luxury SUVs that are unreliable and extremely expensive to buy and own. Grenadier made a huge thing about them being made in Britain, then betrayed us. Neither are British cars and neither do much for our economy.
It has made me wonder what I would buy instead, if I wanted a modern Defender-a-like and was rolling in money.
I like the look of the new mini Jeep, especially in Burnt Orange. And I like the Suzuki Jimny, although it seems both rare and very expensive in the UK. I do like boxy cars.
I also quite liked a ride I had in a Skoda Yeti, they seem like quite well designed cars. My father and sister have both bought new Dacia Dusters and like them.
So without wishing to be argumentative and just an interesting observation, you wouldn’t buy a Grenadier because it’s not British and not built in this Country, however you would be interested in buying Jeep, Suzuki, Skoda Yeti or Dacia Duster.
Well I can attest that the Skoda Yeti is a fine car, one of the best I have owned , but I wouldn’t touch the 1.2 engine as it’s too underpowered IMO. They are well put together and in the 4 years I owned mine nothing went wrong with it. I can heartily recommend them to you.
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Has anybody gone down the 'great wall' brand route?
At cattle market this am, isuzu is very much in vogue, some of those merc badged nissans, a sprinkling of long service defs.
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What concerns me about the Grenadier is what is the Main Dealer network going to be like. Even the best vehicle needs a back-up organisation for spares, repairs and servicing. Particularly so if they are going to be driven on trans-European and other trans-continental trips.
Even the most reliable vehicle, and most careful driver, can sustain damage in relatively minor collisions for example. The vehicle might need major servicing on prolonged trips, what is the position on spares back-up, what technician training is happening, what is the supporting infrastructure for the Grenadier?
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A dealer network has been established and where there is limited coverage, there will be a head office support function. Full spares backup and technical training is ongoing at the moment.
The bottom line is that a new car manufacturer launching a new product has only one shot at getting it right. I haven't been sitting about twiddling my thumbs for the past 4 years :cheers, we have all been pulling together to create a sound and robust support network.
I'm proud of what has been achieved and there is still a lot to do, but it will be fine.
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Best of luck to the Gren.
I hope it does well.
(Speaking as one of the "abandoned by JLR").
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Best of luck to the Gren.
I hope it does well.
(Speaking as one of the "abandoned by JLR").
^^^ Ditto. I do like the look of the Grenadier, I hope it can provide a proper working vehicle for the future..... :cheers
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A dealer network has been established and where there is limited coverage, there will be a head office support function. Full spares backup and technical training is ongoing at the moment.
The bottom line is that a new car manufacturer launching a new product has only one shot at getting it right. I haven't been sitting about twiddling my thumbs for the past 4 years :cheers, we have all been pulling together to create a sound and robust support network.
I'm proud of what has been achieved and there is still a lot to do, but it will be fine.
The map looked reasonably populated with pin drops when I looked. With the bmw bits, unless they are gren specific or older parts they should be available from bmw agent if an ineos dealer is not to hand, or is that a warranty invalidator?
I had a word with a materials planner, and the machines he presides over do not use carrarro axles and he has never heard of them. He has worked for JCB for 31years and says their axles are made by jcb transmissions wrexham.
The one shot at getting it right is true, as folks even if they are rooting for a new product success will only give it so long or stick with it so far.
My reservation other than cost is, INEOS have only existed since 1998, and have multi faceted business.
If the numbers dont stack up will the project be halted.
Further reading on ineos show mercedes involvement so why plump for bmw engine?
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Got to be honest, if I’m in a position to buy a new Grenadier when my current pickup is due for change (in about a year or so) I won’t hesitate.
I went on the website and built one to my spec ticking a LOT of the options boxes and it came out including VAT around £63k. That is only 3 grand more than my pickup was in 2019 and a lot cheaper than an equivalent Defender
Was your pickup gold plated?
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I’m pleased to report that while driving my old Defender down a road near Tavistock in Devon I saw a new Defender 110 with a roof rack filled with ladders which clearly worked for its living. First time other than on the Harry’s Garage YouTube channel
Mind you, knowing the price if my builder turned up in one...
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I haven't been lucky enough to look at a Grenadier yet and certainly not in a position to order one but, I have enjoyed following the story through their emails and Facebook page. It does look a very capable vehicle and something I could see myself happily driving around in.
It is a shame to say that Land Rover no longer produce anything I like the look of. The Discovery lost its looks at the 3rd version and the Range Rover has developed into a huge oversized jelly mould on wheels. The Range Rover Sport is probably the best looking of the bunch now for me.
I think if I had the kind of money to buy a new vehicle I wouldn't. I'd buy an old 110 station wagon and pay someone to rebuild it onto a new chassis, new bulkhead, new interior and fresh paint. I kind of miss the 110 V8 station wagon my parents used to own, that was great.
Craig.
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I think if I had the kind of money to buy a new vehicle I wouldn't. I'd buy an old 110 station wagon and pay someone to rebuild it onto a new chassis, new bulkhead, new interior and fresh paint. I kind of miss the 110 V8 station wagon my parents used to own, that was great.
Craig.
Great choice Craig. :cheers
However, I think if I had the space, I would buy a Discovery 3 (or possibly 4).
Not for any reason other than I like the look of them when they come towards me on the road.
They have "presence".
The new Defender" can drive past me and I don't even notice it...... :coffee
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Great choice Craig. :cheers
However, I think if I had the space, I would buy a Discovery 3 (or possibly 4).
Not for any reason other than I like the look of them when they come towards me on the road.
They have "presence".
The new Defender" can drive past me and I don't even notice it...... :coffee
The D3 I had was a great vehicle, I had a few niggles with it in the 8 years I had it as my daily but along with my Skoda Yeti it was a great vehicle. Not sure how the electrics will hold up on a + 10 year old D3 but they are lovely to drive. My Old Toyota LC feels like D2 to drive but far more reliable. I’m not sure how bullet proof the current LC is as they are more complex so I’ll stick with my LC 90 Colorado.
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The D3 I had was a great vehicle, I had a few niggles with it in the 8 years I had it as my daily but along with my Skoda Yeti it was a great vehicle. Not sure how the electrics will hold up on a + 10 year old D3 but they are lovely to drive. My Old Toyota LC feels like D2 to drive but far more reliable. I’m not sure how bullet proof the current LC is as they are more complex so I’ll stick with my LC 90 Colorado.
I also have a 90 colorado a 1999, in 9 years of ownership it was cost virtually no money in repairs just servicing costs. I was looking for a disco or defender when I ended up buying it as pound for pound I thought it gave much better bang for the bucks. It tows a horse trailer brilliantly and at 23 years old everything still works.
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Huh... no responses from others here in the States...
If I had that kind of money I wouldn't buy either; I would take some of that money though and have Grover gone over with a fine toothed comb by better Rover mechanics than myself!!! With the rest I'd probably buy a nice SI 80".
As to the Grenadier - I do prefer it's looks. The new 'Defender' - not on your life - hate the thing!!! It doesn't even look like it belongs within the LR stable. A buddy of mine's said it reminded him of a fancy version of a 1990s Dodge Caravan!! To me, and few friends in the area, they come off more as snooty soccer mom SUVs and nothing more.
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Don't underestimate the capabilities of the New Defender. It is highly impressive. I too don't like the styling, but that's a personal thing. Mind you - I hated the look of Discovery 3 when it first came out, now I think that was a fantastic design, so things do grow on you.
An interesting comment from a friend of mine (who works for JLR) last year at an event where we were showing off one of our prototype Grenadiers... "We should have built that as our New Defender. We should have badged our New Defender as Discovery 5 and never built our Discovery 5...
I agree - that would have been one impressive stable of vehicles.
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I would not be surprised if in the future Ineos sells the Grenadier to JLR - lock, stock & barrel….
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Mark, I am like you, I do not like the shape of the new defender but I have a couple of friends who have them (they are also series owners). They apre pleased with them and they have proved to be very good off road and so far reliable.
I do like the shape of the Grenadier and I always thought Iveco missed a trick when they cocked up the PS10
Peter
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An interesting comment from a friend of mine (who works for JLR) last year "We should have built that as our New Defender. We should have badged our New Defender as Discovery 5 and never built our Discovery 5...
So many people, including me, have been saying that ^ ever since the Pretender was revealed (after a painfully long build up).
So it is good to hear the same from a Factory insider!
I would not be surprised if in the future Ineos sells the Grenadier to JLR - lock, stock & barrel….
Stranger things have happened!
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So many people, including me, have been saying that ^ ever since the Pretender was revealed (after a painfully long build up).
There will be a lot more people that don’t agree, myself included, times move on, vehicles develop, I’m glad the new defender isn’t like the old one, I’d love to know if the haters have driven one or even looked closely at one. The factory can’t make them fast enough, I waited 10 months for ours, some are being told now the wait is over a year, if you don’t like a car, you don’t have to buy one or moan about it, just accept you don’t like it and move on. Rant over.
Phil.
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Yet those who love it can't seem to resist temptation to prove those who don't like it to be "wrong". Why doesn't the live and let live attitude work both ways?
The new Defender poses two questions to me. Is it's good car? Is it a good Defender replacement? I doubt ever will truly be resolved.
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Yet those who love it can't seem to resist temptation to prove those who don't like it to be "wrong". Why doesn't the live and let live attitude work both ways?
The new Defender poses two questions to me. Is it's good car? Is it a good Defender replacement? I doubt ever will truly be resolved.
Is that aimed at me? If so, where did I say anyone was wrong?
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No, just a general observation.
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There will be a lot more people that don’t agree, myself included, times move on, vehicles develop, I’m glad the new defender isn’t like the old one, I’d love to know if the haters have driven one or even looked closely at one. The factory can’t make them fast enough, I waited 10 months for ours, some are being told now the wait is over a year, if you don’t like a car, you don’t have to buy one or moan about it, just accept you don’t like it and move on. Rant over.
Phil.
Hmm.
Am I allowed to comment on other cars I don't particularly like (however "good" they are), or is it just the new "Defender"? ???
(My comment, of course, focused on the fact that even a factory insider said it should not have been called "Defender"). :coffee
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Probably time to let this one rest now. It certainly was not my intention to trigger any form of dispute.
Horses for courses!
I would add though that in line with most JLR products certainly in the LR stable, quality and reliability remains a big issue. the number of Ingenium engine failures I am aware of at present is really quite scary and I'm just thankful I handed in my warranty pen many years ago as I wsould not want the current issues on my watch. After 30+ years working with or for LR, it does sadden me that the company does not seem to be able to address some pretty basic quality issues. Equally, despite years of customer service campaigns the dealer network's ability to engage properly with their customer base is not great either. There is a pretender in the wings and if JLR are not careful, the Defender crown will be snatched from them.
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There is a pretender in the wings and if JLR are not careful, the Defender crown will be snatched from them.
There is actually another pretender now (if you have deep pockets and own a power station)
https://www.munro-ev.com/
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By far, the New Defender is the best Land Rover yet in my view. I’ve had several new Range Rovers, Discoverys, and the New Defender is absolutely superb - far better than a Series Off and on-road. The attention to detail on the styling, externally and internally cleverly references the Series heritage, especially the Series 2. Having said that, I’d not part with my characterful Series Land Rovers. The New Defender is, after 70 years of evolution, clearly a very different vehicle to its predecessors. But a worthy replacement for the Series/90/110/Defenders, and is quite different to the other JLR offerings. If you’re sceptical, take one for a drive and then compare it to the Discovery and the Range Rover. No surprise there’s a long wait-time for these, even though the base price has now increased by approx 30% since launch.