S2C Forum Archives
Main Section => Welcome to our virtual Pub Meeting ... => Topic started by: Sheppy on September 18, 2019, 04:58:32 PM
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I’ve got an early 58 s2 with the original military engine 2 1/4 petrol the fuel to mpg is about 18mpg.
I’m reluctant to go fitting a 200 or 300tdi as she’s so original but I’d like to get more mpg and I must admit I’ve started to pay the thought of changing the engine to a later diesel motor more and more appealing.
Any thoughts please people?
Shep
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I've got a suffix C SWB with the original 2 1/4 engine in it. I probably get 15 miles to the gallon. For the miles that I do in it it would make no economic sense to go to the time trouble and expense of putting a more fuel efficient engine in it. I guess that the day will come when an electric motor becomes a sensible option.
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It's all down to how you use your Land Rover.
If it's your daily driver (only vehicle) then the fuel bills can mount up.
How many miles is your normal run?
On a decent run my 2¼ petrol will do 24 mpg with overdrive on 6:50 tyres :agh
Around town on shorter trips this bottoms out at 18 mpg.
You could fit a Tdi diesel, but sacrifice the smoother running from a petrol engine.
You could convert and run your petrol on LPG - if you have local fill-up places near you ???
Some years back a good diesel conversion was the Perkins 2 litre Prima as found in Rover Montego cars - virtually all long since gone :'(
A very smooth running engine and when fitted to my SWB I could easily get 40+ mpg !!
But, you never know the odd Perkins engine does crop up.
Remember, the cam belt is open, so wading in mud is NOT recommended.
The future is electric. There are electric conversion for classic cars coming along.
:cheers
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Therres already a London firm doing a series LR electric conversion, however, its 10 grand :agh so if I ever went electric it'd be a home made job.. ;)
For now I still reckon the 2 ¹/⁴ petrol is the best engine ever..
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I have the 200, recently got 22.5mpg(US gal) on a loaded camping trip including 3 8k' passes and 26.5mpg around home all gps verified. Diesel here is $4.00/gal and reg gas is $3.87. With my extended range tank I can get near 400 miles out of a 15 gal tank. (there maybe more in the tank, but I'm loathe to run it MT.)
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Early 58 with a 2.25. Is it a LWB?
If not it is not the original engine. Early 58 88 s had the S1 2l diesel.
Peter
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Early 58 with a 2.25. Is it a LWB?
If not it is not the original engine. Early 58 88 s had the S1 2l diesel.
Peter
According to the OP it's currently the 2.25 petrol.
Alec
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Have you driven a tdi converted one?
If not, might be worth seeing if anyone local has one you can have a spin in. The tdi makes a right old racket, and it's quite vibey. They do give good mpg though, I consistently got low 30's in a 109 SW with 200tdi plus overdrive.
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It could be your driving technique.
Hard acceleration :-X hard braking all add up to poor MPG.
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Cheers all, I don’t drive it hard, I’ve thought of lpg but hear so many conflicting stories I’ve been put off.
It’s a swb. engine woes aside as far as lpg goes I’d have to put the tank in the rear tub somewhere.
D
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Alec
I have dislexic fingers. It should have read early 59 88s should have a 2l petrol engine, hence my asking if it was LWB or SWB.
The 88s didn't get the 2.25 petrol engine till about September 1958 (I could check the exact date and the date of the first S2 military contract but I am away from home at the moment)
Peter
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If you're used to a petrol, you may not enjoy a rattly diesel !..tbh I've personally always disliked diesel engines anyway...
They only came to prominence due to diesel fuel being cheap once in the dim distant past ..before they caught on & taxed it right up... :shakeinghead
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I have a 200 Tdi in my ‘59 109”. It has been in there for just over 12 years now and suits my needs, likes and temperament. I’ve always preferred the way that diesels drive, and before the Tdi transplant it’d been a 2.25 diesel for about 14 years and a 2.25 petrol for the first year or so of my ownership.
I’ve nearly finished rebuilding a replacement Tdi engine for it, as the one in there wasn’t exactly in its first flush of youth when it went in, and more than a decade of hard use has seen it get quite rattly; not surprising really, for a 28 year old engine with over 300,000 miles on it. I thought long and hard about alternatives before deciding to stick with the Tdi. I seriously considered going back to petrol; a 2.5 from a 90/110 would have been easy, but I know it wouldn’t have suited how I use the wagon, and the drop in power and economy would have irked me, despite the improvement in refinement. A V8 was also a consideration, but their reputation for fragility puts me off as much as the thoughts of fuelling them. All manner of “wrong” engines, like a small block V8 from GMC or Ford, a modern inline 6 from BMW or Mercedes (petrol or diesel) all came with the requirement to resume annual MoT-ing, which wouldn’t be a problem if I really wanted a particular power plant, but none of them excite me enough to make the change, and most/all of them would need a revision in the gearbox department too.
I’ve also spent time, money and effort over the years in getting the gearing right and all the other niggly details to make the Tdi work as a complete package; brakes, tyres, suspension, ancillaries, and really couldn’t face starting again from scratch revising all that.
So I’ve stuck with the Tdi.
In an otherwise standard vehicle though, with a tired engine, that’s not going to get flogged to death, I think I’d probably keep things standard. Particularly an 88”. A proper rebuild on your original engine, or maybe a step up to a 2.5 petrol, would be my advice.
LPG is fine if you’re prepared to go the whole hog, with individual injectors and a 100% LPG system. If you want a 50/50 with a tank of petrol and a tank of gas, together with all the Heath-Robinson plumbing of a mixer system then IMHO you’ll never get it running right.
If you think you might want diesel economy, then you’ll need to have a proper go in some diesel vehicles to see if you can live with the commensurate drop in refinement. And to be sure that you can cope with the drop in go you have with a 2.25 diesel or can manage all the other bits that you need to do to make a Tdi work properly.
Best of luck.
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Plenty of food for thought there Glen, many thanks for the informative reply.
I’m ok with running a diesel motor having had various ones before, not land rovers tho.
I’ll pay it some more thought I think.
Cheers
D
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2 1/4 diesel, I am not in a hurry. I like its driving characteristics. Noise can be tiring. Towards 30mpg if you nurse it, which I do.
7.50s and overdrive give it top end without murdering it.
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2 1/4 diesel, I am not in a hurry. I like its driving characteristics. Noise can be tiring. Towards 30mpg if you nurse it, which I do.
7.50s and overdrive give it top end without murdering it.
:ditto
The Panda camper is my "fun" car so I don't do that many miles in a year.
The trips I do make are quite long. The cab and engine bay have been sound proofed and I drive with ear defenders :noisey
The driving experience is OK.
It will hold a steady 60 ish on the motorways, until you get to a hill.
The 2¼ diesel is quite refined - smoother than the Tdi but not as nice as the Perkins Prima.
:RHD
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I too go for ear defenders when they are to hand.
The gap in gearing 3rd to 4th has me using overdrive as a splitter if unladen.
Tdi surf the turbo and when it is off boost it is as gutless if not worse than a 2 1/4 diesel.
The sensation of going faster in a tdi conceals that you still have to keep changing gears.
Re the prima, I recall it from the maestro van.
They put it in the small sherpa or ldv 200. It was a sought after unit.
When the redubbed 200 pilot was issued with a 1.9 non turbo peugeot engine, that combination was woeful or at least the one I was in was, and I am a fan of peugeot units.
I would not like to take my 2 1/4 on a motorway or dual carriageway. Higher speeds are for clearouts when engine is good and warmed up. A and B road trundling is what suits it.
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I run a 200tdi in the 88" with Disco' diffs and overdrive.
I'm really happy with it, and my standard gearbox hasn't exploded yet, but then again I don't drive it like a $@!*%
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What carb do you have? Is it worth considering a Weber 34, as a cheaper alternative to changing engine?
When I acquired my 2.25 in the late 80's the Weber was all the rage, because apparently it has a beneficial effect on MPG.
However, I don't have any data to back it up. I don't measure my MPG but it isn't too bad, and my engine is quite tired.
Unfortunately my Zenith got thrown way back in the 80's, as it had a massively worn spindle hole (in the body casting) and air was pouring through it. I couldn't see how I was going to repair it.
So, I got a new Weber.
In retrospect, I should have kept it, because these days perhaps someone could have repaired the Zenith carb body and it would have been fun to go back to it for comparison and originality.
Andrew
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Ive got a standard 2 1/4 petrol with home made electronic ignition. That with 750 tyres and standard diffs. As it is a SWB I've had the speedo recalibrated to match the larger tyres. Its happy cruising at 45-50 but I haven't taken it any higher as the noise is a bit much :agh
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With all this talk of engine swaps, do you guys notify DVLA to update your V5C ???
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Tell 'em nothing. ;)
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With all this talk of engine swaps, do you guys notify DVLA to update your V5C ???
Sorry; your point is what, exactly?
Obviously, I don’t speak for everyone, but the paperwork for my 109” is totally in order. Numbers, capacities, colour, fuel type etc. My insurers are aware of all my Land-Rover’s modifications and I’m confident it would pass any scrutiny. I have a detailed file of money spent, work done and fuel used that backs up its current status and condition, and I have written detailed articles published in various parts of the web (on the Tdi conversion in particular) which provide a timeline for the work.
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Mine is the same as Glens.
Peter
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Ive got a standard 2 1/4 petrol with home made electronic ignition. That with 750 tyres and standard diffs. As it is a SWB I've had the speedo recalibrated to match the larger tyres. Its happy cruising at 45-50 but I haven't taken it any higher as the noise is a bit much :agh
This is the same setup as mine and mph I’m getting, I do have the Webber carb fitted tho.
Shep
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2 x 200 Tdi's and surprisingly a 4154 Perkins, chugs along nice and runs on fumes.
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All in engine bay? :agh :agh
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With all this talk of engine swaps, do you guys notify DVLA to update your V5C ???
Land Rover for Land Rover unit, not a problem. Others if done long enough ago the same.
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All in engine bay? :agh :agh
No in the back, carried as spares :RHD :RHD
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No in the back, carried as spares :RHD :RHD
You are John Eastwood, and I claim my £5. :-X
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(https://www.series2club.co.uk/new_forum/Smileys/wittsends/stig.gif)
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Sorry; your point is what, exactly?
Obviously, I don’t speak for everyone, but the paperwork for my 109” is totally in order. Numbers, capacities, colour, fuel type etc. My insurers are aware of all my Land-Rover’s modifications and I’m confident it would pass any scrutiny. I have a detailed file of money spent, work done and fuel used that backs up its current status and condition, and I have written detailed articles published in various parts of the web (on the Tdi conversion in particular) which provide a timeline for the work.
Fair point well put.
The only police attention mine has attracted was welcomed as vehicle was on the move after curfew, and it passed pnc and scrutiny.
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i´ve got a 2.25 petrol Engine
Motornumber 151 123907
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Sorry; your point is what, exactly?
Obviously, I don’t speak for everyone, but the paperwork for my 109” is totally in order. Numbers, capacities, colour, fuel type etc. My insurers are aware of all my Land-Rover’s modifications and I’m confident it would pass any scrutiny. I have a detailed file of money spent, work done and fuel used that backs up its current status and condition, and I have written detailed articles published in various parts of the web (on the Tdi conversion in particular) which provide a timeline for the work.
I've just seen this reply after being away.
I'm not checking on anyone !! I bought a 12J engined IIA 10 years ago and found it was still described as the original 21/4 petrol
I made the changes officially after collecting supporting evidence, NOW I've replaced that diesel lump with a 2/14 petrol again :stars
So my point is, do I go through this rigmarole once again? Does anyone bother? Now that the subject of engine swaps has come up, I thought I'd ask....That's all ???
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I went for a 'Power Plus' 2.5 petrol and find the fuel consumption is about the same as the 2¼ petrol round town but better in journeys. Like Wittsend, I get about 18 pottering about stop start (and a lot of trips involving going up a back lane and across a site in low gear). The extra power means you are not thrashing up hills in low gears and the extra compression ratio increases the efficiency of the engine - I am not sure if the SU carburettor makes it more economical as well. I have to admit to generally treating mine with no mercy, I have never had it completely flat out but am sure it could top 80mph if I was brave enough. I generally use the extra mid range power as there are a lot of hills round here, plus the novelty of being able to overtake people when necessary! The five bearing engine is noticeably smoother and quieter, after the previous 39 years with 2¼ three bearing engines. The engine mine came with was an original type 151 that had been bored out to +40, the next one was a poor recon and lasted only 5 years with camshaft problems, then the last one did 29 years until two years ago! It is now in the back garden minus its cylinder head that I have stashed (it was a Turner unleaded head so worth keeping). The block had been bored to +60 but has a large repaired crack down the side of it. Whilst this has never given me problems, I would not offer it as an exchange!
Sunny Jim
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I've just seen this reply after being away.
I'm not checking on anyone !! I bought a 12J engined IIA 10 years ago and found it was still described as the original 21/4 petrol
I made the changes officially after collecting supporting evidence, NOW I've replaced that diesel lump with a 2/14 petrol again :stars
So my point is, do I go through this rigmarole once again? Does anyone bother? Now that the subject of engine swaps has come up, I thought I'd ask....That's all ???
I think it gives owner peace of mind, and insurers can use discrepancies to void policy.
If it were a cc change of series to 90/110 4 cylinder rather than a fuel type this could be considered less vital.
I personally like vehicle to correspond to paperwork.
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Me too 2286 :first
Hence my correction on purchase, following my latest swap I met with Are you really going to bother ???
On reflection, I'll correct the paperwork. So there, another function of this fine forum, keeping me on the straight and narrow ;)
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Currently run a tdi with out the turbo. Noise is high but always been impressed with its economy and how ridiculously easy it is to start. The original petrol 2 and a quarter was lovely but worn and the fumes were noticeable and mpg poor...at the time my only car so had to swap to survive. It was a lovely engine in the 109 I used to drive for the recce unit I was in...and so quiet...much more tactical. But I like the way the diesel drives and would only swap for a non ice option in the future
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Assuming your V5C registration document is correct with your name & address and the chassis number, date of manufacture matches up with the registration number on the vehicle and document.
THEN
:-\ There is no reason not to inform the DVLA of any engine change or colour change.
BUT
Only send in "one change" at a time - the DVLA get easily "confused".
Keeping the vehicle details work in your favour - should the vehicle get stolen, written off, or stopped at a road-side check.
Can save a lot of bother.
ALSO
Should fuel rationing ever come back - and I can remember the fuel crisis in 1973 and still have my ration books.
You got a certain number of coupons depending on engine size and fuel type.
Could be embarrassing if they ever bring back rationing ???
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That is a fascinating snapshot of recent history re fuel rations.
MrTDiy did you remove the turbo as it was damaged or faulty and that was the reason the engine became available. I would be intrigued to see how a tdi with turbo removed drives next to a 2.5n/a.
I know the 2.5 turbo d was essentially a 2.5n/a with a turbo nailed on, there were issues in there own right with the engine but the pep baited drivers to use the new found pace making them short lived and delicate compared to what came before and after.
Dentman glad to know I am not in the minority, there are those who choose not to have vehicle corresponding to paperwork simply through not wishing to engage with the dvla and those who do it for more sinister reasons. I recall a chap who was selling a 1970 range rover. I was very interested in what was if it was a very very early example. When I found the chassis number actually belonged to an 88 series2a land rover I was no longer a potential buyer. The fact it was running a tdi and 5 speed ex disco and still registered as 3.5 petrol became the lesser of two evils on this occasion. The seller was insistent that it was all legitimate 'as it had been through an mot like that and not been picked up'. Very scary indeed.
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Yes, a further example of why you might want the vehicle numbers to match those on the V5C reg document - when it comes to selling and buying time.
:-\
Do not buy a vehicle where the numbers don't match.
Walk away - there are plenty of others for sale with the correct paperwork.
:-\ :-\
It matters not what a seller says - what the DVLA did years ago is irrelevant - what matters today is what rules they are currently working to.
Do not believe the seller.
You can always check (in confidence) with our VRO ( [email protected]).
As an aside.
Back in '73 my MG was recorded as having a 1622 cc engine. However, for some reason a PO had fitted a 1489 cc engine and hadn't bothered to get the log book (as they were then called) updated.
At fuel rationing time, I would have got a slightly bigger fuel allowance :-[
As we know rationing was avoided, but the price of petrol doubled almost over night :'(
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That is a fascinating snapshot of recent history re fuel rations.
MrTDiy did you remove the turbo as it was damaged or faulty and that was the reason the engine became available. I would be intrigued to see how a tdi with turbo removed drives next to a 2.5n/a.
I know the 2.5 turbo d was essentially a 2.5n/a with a turbo nailed on, there were issues in there own right with the engine but the pep baited drivers to use the new found pace making them short lived and delicate compared to what came before and after.
Dentman glad to know I am not in the minority, there are those who choose not to have vehicle corresponding to paperwork simply through not wishing to engage with the dvla and those who do it for more sinister reasons. I recall a chap who was selling a 1970 range rover. I was very interested in what was if it was a very very early example. When I found the chassis number actually belonged to an 88 series2a land rover I was no longer a potential buyer. The fact it was running a tdi and 5 speed ex disco and still registered as 3.5 petrol became the lesser of two evils on this occasion. The seller was insistent that it was all legitimate 'as it had been through an mot like that and not been picked up'. Very scary indeed.
Hi, I deliberately planned not to use the turbo as it simplifies the installation no end and also meant that it was more reversible ....coupled with the fact that I can't weld and need to get my wheels back on the road quickly. It meant I didn't need oil cooling or intercooling. In fact I Butchered the flanges on the untried turbo in order to build a jig so I could then take that jig with the flanges to Bells silencers in Swindon who then made me a joiner so I could come off the manifold stick this adaptor in and then use a Steve Parker exhaust conversion....which made the process very quick and look quite professional.
Hope that helps. In terms of power....It felt fairly similar to my old petrol....smidge better with no spike in power that might jeopardise the transmission