S2C Forum Archives
Main Section => Welcome to our virtual Pub Meeting ... => Topic started by: Patrick Brooks on May 10, 2021, 03:44:02 PM
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Hello, I am a new member and I was after some expertise please from established members .
I am looking to buy a Series 2 Land Rover but being mainly a Series 1 and Defender owner previously I am no expert on the Series 2.
The vehicle I am looking to purchase is shown on the link below and I wanted to seek advice mainly on the rear wings which appear to be cut away. I also want to find out if it has the appropriate engine and I can send some pictures separately.
https://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/land+rover/series+2/aetv82656924
Many thanks in advance for any help and advice you can offer.
Thanks
Patrick
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Not trying to be negative sorry, but it's not right, all the photos are mainly for the front, and one bad pic of the inside, it looks like its been touched up just so the prestation looks better, how much are they asking for it do you know? like you say the back has been cut, dont see a reason for it, whats the chassis and bulkhead like?
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Thanks for the reply, negativity is welcome as I want to buy a reasonable example . This is for sale at just under 13K at the moment
I have been and viewed it and have some internal shots and of the engine bay if those might shed some further light on it.
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Has it been off the road for some time ? , as it has no MOT history, my car now MOT exempt, still has its history come up to view on the DVLA website.
Simon.
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Personally, I wouldnt buy from a dealer. He is not charging enough for it to be really good and give him a markup. The fact that it has absolutely no MOT history rings a few alarm bells. You would need to check chassis number (on the chassis) agrees with the V5.
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Not the best example for the money they are asking, things that don't add up
1. Later wiper motor fitted, should be one or two single window mounted drives.
2. The heater has been removed leaving just one rusty demister on the drivers side
3. The tilt frame is bent on the passengers side.
4. it looks like it's had later rear axle strap brackets fitted on the back, they should be flush if the date is correct - as the chassis been changed?
5. The lower rear corners have been removed and then pop riveted.
I'm sure if you look around there are more honest machines out there.
Good luck with your search - it's never easy.
RobS
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Thanks Simon, I dont know its history according to the sales description it was owned by an enthusiast and traded in against another Series LWB.
Chassis and bulkhead appear okay , small hole in A pillar
Engine bay and interior shots attached
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Thank you Gents for the additional expert opinions all your points are valuable and appreciated and I agree I need to keep looking by the sound of it.
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Hi Patrick,
Can`t help but be a little suspicious when the guy on video made no mention of the engine.
William Shakespeare once said "All that glitters is not gold".
:grinder
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Sorry, but what enthusiast puts a household plumbing fitting on their oil filler pipe?
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Very wise words . It doesn't actually glitter that much in the flesh either so even more worrying
The household plumbing fitting sounds like the jury are agreed !
Thank you everyone .
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Any dealer worth their salt would get the vehicle MoT'd - even though a Series 2 doesn't need it - get the certificate.
I/we all know the MoT test can be "fudged" but any decent dealer would have it properly tested - just makes it a little more "attractive" to potential buyers.
(And if it turns out to be a dangerous rust bucket you can report it to the MoT test station to the DVSA.)
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In the video the seller states that the paint has come off the driver's floor because of wear from feet, but it's missing paint in an odd area for placing one's feet. To me it looks more like paint stripped by leaking brake fluid from the master cylinder.
David
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Thank you yes the MOT would be the obvious benchmark to give me some reassurance
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Well detected David , I think you are right as this happened to my Defender
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Hi there, welcome to the forum.
I bought my first S2 back in Feb2020. The forum has been invaluable in helping me along and I wish I had known about it when I was buying. I suppose in hindsight, I took a bit of a punt, but fortunately I got what I wanted with few surprises - a largely original and complete S2. It was not a runner, but within my capabilities to get back onto the road. I paid £4k.
There have been a few threads on S2 prices since I bought (search them out) and I have kept an eye on the selling prices since buying mine. Prices are definitely creeping up. £13k would be very top end to my mind. There are some commanding crazy money £20k, £30k even £40k but not in the real world. Some good examples of either very original with the aged patina or well sorted useable S2's have gone for somewhere between £5k and £9k.
I think you are doing the right thing by asking here. There isn’t much that isn't known and as you have seen, there is no shortage of good honest advice. I dare say there may be an old sage nearby who might cast an eye over it for you. Good luck.
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13K is a lot of money so would need to be good in my opinion. Can anyone recall how much PGV616 sold for in the end.... I'll go and have a search as may be way off :-)
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13K is a lot of money so would need to be good in my opinion. Can anyone recall how much PGV616 sold for in the end.... I'll go and have a search as may be way off :-)
I thought it went for less than 20K I can't remember the exact figure - but as they say they only sell for as much as someone is prepared to pay - special attention is required for anything over 10K just to make sure you are getting value for money.
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£13k would be very top end to my mind. There are some commanding crazy money £20k, £30k even £40k but not in the real world. Some good examples of either very original with the aged patina or well sorted useable S2's have gone for somewhere between £5k and £9k.
You should see the amount they go for here in the States. You CAN get them for $10k or less if you know the right people. I know three guys, all in the L.A. California area, who spent more than $60K on there's. All three bought 'restored' SIIa Rovers and the restorations look nice, but all sorts of corners were cut and cheap parts used. One of those gents paid $25k for the Rover plus an additional $65K+ for the 'restoration' - he had all sorts of items chromed, the badges were custom made out of brass, and he had an air-conditioner designed, built and installed (looks like some futurist thing you'd find in a late '50s or early '60s luxury car). He had it painted to match his '63 Porsche.
I know where there is a derelict, '67 or '69 SIIa that has half an engine, rusted out chassis, rusty bulkhead, rotting seats, home made RR and so on for $7K.
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I thought it went for less than 20K I can't remember the exact figure - but as they say they only sell for as much as someone is prepared to pay - special attention is required for anything over 10K just to make sure you are getting value for money.
Thanks I wasn't sure but at least with that one anyone could see the effort that had gone into it.
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13K is a lot of money so would need to be good in my opinion. Can anyone recall how much PGV616 sold for in the end.... I'll go and have a search as may be way off :-)
£18k or thereabouts. I saw it just before it was sold and took a lot of photographs, as a baseline for where various things should go on mine.
I think at present there are five general pricing groups (excluding the hopelessly optimistic, misguided or dubious):
£1500-2500 = full-on restoration project. No chance of driving it as it stands as the chassis may break in half, the bulkhead is rotten and the engine is lurking somewhere under the black grime.
£4000-8000 = running, roadworthy but in need of a rolling restoration. Either on its original chassis (at the lower end of the bracket that's heavily patched) or an older replacement. May have some substitute parts such as an S3 bulkhead, replacement engine etc. or be a bit of a Bitsa. Nothing wrong with any of this - it's an honest working vehicle which has been kept going within POs' budgets and needs.
£12000-18000 = a genuine, largely original vehicle (patina) and ready to use and enjoy. The chassis may have been replaced with a decent galvanised one, and it may have a couple of other units changed, but it's basically a through-and-through S2 (or 2a).
£15000-25000 = a fully restored vehicle. The range reflects how many parts were original, pattern, NOS etc. and, to an extent, who did the work. You would expect to pay more for a vehicle fully restored by Dunsfold than one which was restored by the owner; if the engine was rebuilt by a specialist vs. the local machine shop etc. so it may not directly equate to quality, more to certainty.
£25000+ = something unique, probably belonging in a museum, due to either build or provenance. What would you get for the Queen's S2 or No.16?
Alec
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£18k or thereabouts. I saw it just before it was sold and took a lot of photographs, as a baseline for where various things should go on mine.
I think at present there are five general pricing groups (excluding the hopelessly optimistic, misguided or dubious):
£1500-2500 = full-on restoration project. No chance of driving it as it stands as the chassis may break in half, the bulkhead is rotten and the engine is lurking somewhere under the black grime.
£4000-8000 = running, roadworthy but in need of a rolling restoration. Either on its original chassis (at the lower end of the bracket that's heavily patched) or an older replacement. May have some substitute parts such as an S3 bulkhead, replacement engine etc. or be a bit of a Bitsa. Nothing wrong with any of this - it's an honest working vehicle which has been kept going within POs' budgets and needs.
£12000-18000 = a genuine, largely original vehicle (patina) and ready to use and enjoy. The chassis may have been replaced with a decent galvanised one, and it may have a couple of other units changed, but it's basically a through-and-through S2 (or 2a).
£15000-25000 = a fully restored vehicle. The range reflects how many parts were original, pattern, NOS etc. and, to an extent, who did the work. You would expect to pay more for a vehicle fully restored by Dunsfold than one which was restored by the owner; if the engine was rebuilt by a specialist vs. the local machine shop etc. so it may not directly equate to quality, more to certainty.
£25000+ = something unique, probably belonging in a museum, due to either build or provenance. What would you get for the Queen's S2 or No.16?
Alec
Personally Alec I would place an original "patina" vehicle in good sound usable condition above any restored example, but then that's a matter of personal taste.
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I don't really think any one can set prices or preferences - guides are useful but don't cover what's really out there - which can be clearly seen in this offering from the OP, it's all down to the individual and what they are prepared to pay combined with ignorance and how big their rose tinted goggles are :whistle, which unfortunately people / companies are more than willing to take advantage of.
It's only forums like this that can help but in most cases the deed as been done and the results can be very disappointing, at least the OP had the sense to ask, so hats off to him. :tiphat
As for patina / originality - not a great lover of this, certainly when there is no real traceability of the major components (except the chassis - but then there's no guarantee of this being original) such as the engine, gearbox, axles etc - OK they can be dated, but it does not guarantee they were fitted to the vehicle when it went down the line, I have traceability on my Spitfire as it's recorded and has been certified (British Heritage Certified - all numbers matched) which for me makes for a more interesting vehicle.
Lets hope more people ask before they buy.
RobS :coffee
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Hi Patrick,
Last time I was looking for an S2 project, I found somebody on Ebay saying WANTED SERIES 2 LANDROVERS, ANY CONDITION, £2,000 PAID ... or something like that. That would seem to be the bottom line, for other buyers.
On the other hand, there was an advert saying £400 paid for MOT failures. I phoned, and we agreed £400 for my MOT failed Jimny.
Recovery truck arrived. Driver dropped the offer to (I think) about £100. He returned home empty. I assume that some he wins, some he loses. Many venders will reckon that "a bird in the hand ....."
Me? I'd rather start with a lo-buck heap, and KNOW what it's going to cost me*, than pay proper money for something that looks half tidy, and THEN find out what it's going to cost me.
602
PS. New chassis and front bumper, new bulkhead, new brake pipes and 5 stainless braided hoses, New hydraulic cylinders all round, new brake shoes, new clutch, new exhaust manifold, pipes and silencer, new springs and shox. new TREs (possibly new rods) New tyres (5), new fuel tank, new rad panel, new lamps and wiring, new prop-shafts ... which should give you a vehicle that is safe to drive ... and is worth spending a few more bucks on, should it prove necessary (which it probably will). If you are lucky, much of the above will not need doing. If you are very lucky, you will find an abandoned project, with a disgruntled spouse in the background, and you appear on the scene, willing to offer more than the collection driver (mentioned earlier)
who KNOWS what most disheartened vendors will accept.
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Personally Alec I would place an original "patina" vehicle in good sound usable condition above any restored example, but then that's a matter of personal taste.
My feelings also Matt.
When we buy these old motors we have our own reasons. But at the last, we buy with our eyes, if we don't like what's in front of us we`re unlikely to buy. Yes we can buy a tin of bronze green and change the look, and respect to those that do :tiphat, but we can`t buy a tin of patina. And so, if it hasn't already got it ......
Originality, what ever that is, is a very different subject and patina may play a small part in that.
To my mind patina is about the motors life history and how it now presents. Don't they say some men become distinguished with age, their weathered face and silver hair becoming attractive to the ladies?
The word distinguished is found to mean "dignified and noble in appearance or manner" and "very successful, authoritative, and commanding great respect". Synonyms - magnificent, splendid, grand, stately, imposing, dignified and proud etc.
I like distinguished, it fits my definition of what I mean when I think patina.
As said by others, these are personal choice`s, lets just enjoy them however we so choose.
:grinder
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Personally Alec I would place an original "patina" vehicle in good sound usable condition above any restored example, but then that's a matter of personal taste.
For many on this site, that would probably be the case. PGV forms a very good example of a top end patinated vehicle, which was for sale for some months before it went, which is therefore a reasonable top marker (if you price too low then you will probably sell very quickly). It was offered originally at £20k but didn't sell. There seems to be a different type of buyer who wants a fully restored, 'pretty' vehicle to keep at their country cottage and trundle to the shops and back. They appear to be prepared to pay more which has pushed the prices of such vehicles higher.
The figures I put up were not supposed to indicate personal preference, rather where the prices generally sit for each category. The use of such figures is inherently limited and there will always be outliers (the auction bargain or the speculatively overpriced wreck which has had a quick respray for sale to the unwary for example), but these seem to be roughly where prices sit at the moment, based on keeping a fairly close eye on various auction and classified websites. I do think it is useful to have a general idea of price brackets as it indicates what is realistic, what is a good deal and what is too good to be true. There are still some genuine bargains - I was very tempted by the 1961 LWB (with V5) which sold on Ebay on Sunday for £1220. I was even more tempted by the MGB GT which sold yesterday evening for £102 but my 10yr old daughter sat there telling me we already have too many cars and most of them need restoring!
Alec