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Main Section => Welcome to our virtual Pub Meeting ... => Topic started by: 2DieselMan on May 22, 2021, 06:02:02 PM
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Hi All,
I have seen lots of discussion on Series II/IIA Land Rovers Described as Bitsa's and it got me thinking is there an actual definition of what a Bitsa Land Rover is?
Reason for the question is that over the years many Series Land Rovers have probably quite genuinely had some/many parts changed for more modern equivalents, due to both availability and cost, everything from Engines, Gear/Transfer Boxes, Axles, Diffs, Bulkheads even SIII Chassis (as they were cheaper), Radiators, Headlights in Wings, Black Seats, Narrow Sills, etc. all possibly to keep the Land Rover on the road.
- How many of theses changes, are ok before a Land Rover becomes defined as a Bitsa?
I am also assuming that if a 'Period correct replacement has been done, eg. 58 SII fitted with correct engine type, 2 litre Petrol, but not the exact engine it left the factory with or a Land Rover standard reconditioned unit, engine or Gear Box was fitted probably under warranty, then these are ok and don't make the Series Land Rover defined as a Bitsa?
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(my) life is too short for this !!
But, while you are on, howabout defining "purist" as in "not one for the purist"
and rivet counter as in "rivet counters look away"
Although, to be fair, I look at the term rivet counter as acknowledgement that said person knows shed loads more than most
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:fence :face_ponder
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??? I don't have a Bitsa, I have a resto-mod...... :cheers :thud
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To me a bisa is a land rover built from bits here and bits there.
I have a triggers broom (it is not a bitsa) during its 650000+ miles parets have been treplaced and upgraded as necessary and I am responsible for some such as the TLS brakes and servo but the PO went through several engines and it ended up with a late S£/early defender engine and gearbox. However It will be going back to a 2L petrol engine and associated gearbox, not because I am a rivet counter but because I like the 2L petrol engine, the one I have aquired is the right year and somewhere naer the original engine number.
Peter
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(my) life is too short for this !!
But, while you are on, howabout defining "purist" as in "not one for the purist"
and rivet counter as in "rivet counters look away"
Although, to be fair, I look at the term rivet counter as acknowledgement that said person knows shed loads more than most
Lets face it, both terms are pejorative now.
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Surely a bitsa is a vehicle that has had to be re-registered because not enough of the original vehicle remains, everything else is a combination of repairs, replacements and upgrades.
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Bitsa: one that has even less original parts than one’s own.
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In my opinion, a "bitsa" is a vehicle that has been kept on the road or brought back from the dead using replacement parts (either new or second hand) which have replaced the majority of its original worn out or missing major components. . Second hand chassis are obviously excluded, cos then its technically a ringer. I hasten to add that there is nothing wrong with having a 'bitsa', that's what most of mine are in my eyes. But what makes a vehicle special in my opinion is to find one that is "original". To me that's one that has all the major components still fitted that it left the factory with, on its original chassis and hasn't been messed about with. The other class of vehicle I refer to is a "restoration". For me, the main pointer for a restoration is a new galv chassis. It's not a "bitsa" if everything else on the vehicle pretty much correct, it's not a "ringer" because the chassis is new, and it's not "original" because its got a new chassis. Ringer, bitsa, restoration, original. That's the 4 types for me.
Oh, and Dan, I do not find the term rivet counter offensive at all. As mentioned above, I see that term applicable to people who are very knowledgeable on a particular topic. Let's face it, when it cones to 1 tonnes, you are a rivet counter Dan. :tiphat
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We have 2S2s one is a triggers broom (not a bitsa) the other is as original except for the engine and radiator (we do have the original engine). We also have 3 S1s, a 1951 Bitsa, un unfinished rivet counter resto 107 that has been unfinished but on the road in regular use since 2010 and a 1949 in the middle of a rivet counter resto.
That means that I have a foot in all the camps, a bit difficult with only 2 feet.
Peter
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Everyone will have their own opinion of where precisely the boundary lines lie between 'original', 'restored' 'modified' and 'bitsa'.
For me, original means as it left the factory. There is probably no perfectly original vehicle left, but there are degrees of loss of originality as things wear out or corrode and are replaced.
There is then 'modified'. This is not the DVLA legal definition, rather a descriptive term for a vehicle which has had conscious and obvious changes made. This could include adding power steering, uprating the brakes, fitting a different type of engine etc. It spans the full range from minor modifications such as converting from a Series petrol to a Series diesel, through to radical enough that it would need a DVLA single vehicle inspection.
'Restored' means it has been put back to essentially as it left the factory. This could be anywhere from using what is available as a specified later alternative (see Sunny Jim's comment on voltage regulators) and could quite legitimately include a Series 3 chassis if that was what was available at the time, through to date-matched parts at the opposite extreme. The outcome is a useable vehicle which is functionally as it left the factory with some period upgrades.
Then there is 'Bitsa'. A Bitsa to me has a lot of obvious non-original parts. However it has been done with a degree of care and need. It is a radical version of 'Restored', usually on a needs must basis to keep it on the road. Unlike the restored vehicle, the non-original parts are large and obvious components, from donor vehicles, often in not much better condition than the original, and there are quite a few of them so the vehicle looks and feels substantially different from how it left the factory.
A 1958 S2 on a Richards chassis with its original or original type axles, a S2 bulkhead (maybe original repaired, maybe Robert Owen) and a 2.25 engine and gearbox would be restored. If it had a S3 bulkhead, engine and gearbox and lights in wings it would be a Bitsa.
Note, there is nothing derogatory about the term Bitsa. These are often some of the vehicles which have been most cherished and have the most interesting history and character. They have often given the longest continuous service and are to be valued for what they are. Long may they continue!
Alec
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We could actually define 'Bitsa Spectrum Disorder' or BSD: at one end we have a vehicle that is pure, containing only original non-consumable parts with which it left the factory or new/reconditioned correct or succession replacement parts, at the other end the 'ultimate' bitsa is a vehicle built in one go out of parts of two or more vehicles with the idea of simply making something that works, using new consumable parts only where absolutely necessary, and wearing the identity of one of the component donors. You will find that all our vehicles are somewhere in this spectrum! This would not include 'hybrid' vehicles nor anything done for purposes of defrauding tax or MOT exemptions, they should have a category of their own.
Sunny Jim
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Many of us would count as "Bitsa" I suspect. My front teeth were replaced with pattern parts at age 20, after the vehicle I was in rolled. My vision has required multiple pairs of non-original enhancements over the years, I'm required to take a number of additives every morning to keep my motor running.... and as for the exterior, the factory finish has long gone and whats left would be illegal to display in public anyway.
:tiphat
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Many of us would count as "Bitsa" I suspect. My front teeth were replaced with pattern parts at age 20, after the vehicle I was in rolled. My vision has required multiple pairs of non-original enhancements over the years, I'm required to take a number of additives every morning to keep my motor running.... and as for the exterior, the factory finish has long gone and whats left would be illegal to display in public anyway.
:tiphat
Ditto, ditto, ditto...... :-X :-X :-X
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I really don't think we need to worry too much about a definition of bitsa.
Because it doesn't really matter.
What does matter is "original" - as far too many unscrupulous sellers use the term to try to mislead buyers, and inflate the price.
Over the decades these debates have gone round and round.
Does a vehicle have to have the brake shoes it left the factory with, to be "original"? Etc, etc....
"Factory original".
Means original (as new) condition, but with a hundred new replacement parts?
Or old and worn, but totally original specification?
Patina.
Something rare and lovely?
Or just tatty?
All we need now is "Which is best, petrol or diesel?" and we could be here all next week.... :coffee
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Does a vehicle have to have the brake shoes it left the factory with, to be "original"? Etc, etc....
Hence my definition of 'original' in broader terms above; you would never call mine 'original' due to the many repairs and new parts over my 43 years of ownership!
Sunny Jim
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The German TUV suggestion to the EU for retention of "Historic" status was pretty close - among other stipulations all "consumable" parts were to be manufactured by the OEM to the original specification, so brake shoes, wiper blades, tyres, bulbs.... Parts for Landrovers would be fun enough to find, heaven help the owner of some small run model of an obscure marque.
Note a comment from Malta yesterday on our Facebook page that a replacement Galv chassis would render a vehicle there illegal. Non-original chassis = scrapper.
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Many of us would count as "Bitsa" I suspect. My front teeth were replaced with pattern parts at age 20, after the vehicle I was in rolled. My vision has required multiple pairs of non-original enhancements over the years, I'm required to take a number of additives every morning to keep my motor running.... and as for the exterior, the factory finish has long gone and whats left would be illegal to display in public anyway.
:tiphat
We are all bitsas, our cells constantly die and get replaced. Sources say that every single cell in our bodies is replaced every seven years. In addition to that, 98% of the atoms in our bodies are replaced every year and 100% of them are replaced every 5 years. Atoms that were once part of one living being get redistributed and temporarily become part of others by being eaten drunk or breathed in. One academic estimates that there are 200 billion of Shakespeare's atoms in each English person and fewer in those who live further away form where Shakespeare lived. Like it or not, there's a bit of Hitler or anyone else you can think of in all of us too.
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Oh, and Dan, I do not find the term rivet counter offensive at all. As mentioned above, I see that term applicable to people who are very knowledgeable on a particular topic. Let's face it, when it cones to 1 tonnes, you are a rivet counter Dan. :tiphat
Rivet counters may well be very knowledgeable but they also tend to show off their superior knowledge at every opportunity. Just over 10 years ago we attended a Land Rover gathering after having traveled 3000 km through a 5500 km round trip, in a S1, all without problems. You wouldn't believe how many people told me what's wrong with my car. That was the first and only time I attended a Land Rover gathering.
.W.
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.......
All we need now is "Which is best, petrol or diesel?" and we could be here all next week.... :coffee
No need for a week, that question can be disposed of right now- You can't have a "best" of only two options, you need three or more! :-\
Now if you added LPG or veggie oil to the mix.......
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acknowledgement that said person knows shed loads more than most
Hi Biloxi,
Did you say "SAD" or "SAID"? Whichever, I don't like him either.
OT ... there was the story of the newly married couple, on their wedding night ... the wife removed her wig, false teeth, glass eye, replica "lady bits", false hand, wooden leg, pace-maker, etc.
Within a matter of minutes, there was nothing left.
What is the name of the psychiatric condition that persuades somebody that they have authority to tell me that I cannot fit a component to my vehicle, even if that component can be proved to make the vehicle safer? How many Series Land Rovers left the factory with radial tyres?
I believe there was something in the original SVA rules, saying that non-original parts, may be fitted if the correct parts are not available from the original manufacturers. ???
602
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I believe there was something in the original SVA rules, saying that non-original parts, may be fitted if the correct parts are not available from the original manufacturers. ???
602
A very similar line is in the current DVLA guidance on MOT exemption.
"The following are considered acceptable (not substantial) changes if they fall into these specific categories:
Changes that are made to preserve a vehicle, which in all cases must be when original type parts are no longer reasonably available; "
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Rivet counters may well be very knowledgeable but they also tend to show off their superior knowledge at every opportunity. Just over 10 years ago we attended a Land Rover gathering after having traveled 3000 km through a 5500 km round trip, in a S1, all without problems. You wouldn't believe how many people told me what's wrong with my car. That was the first and only time I attended a Land Rover gathering.
.W.
Ha, ha
That reminds me of when I bought back my SWB in 2005 (I had previoulsy owned it in 1981 and, through family and friends who had previously owned it, know its history back to day 1). I rebuilt it and took it (proudly) to a car show in 2007 at Breamore House near Fordingbridge - not too far from me.
I put the bonnet up (as you do!) and put an A4 note on the screen identifying it as a 1961 Series 2a.
It wasn't long before the owner of a FFR on the opposite side of the field came over and told me that there was no way this could be a 1961 Series 2a.
Oh, said I. Why not?
He told me that 'for a start' it had the wrong engine.
Mmmm...... he never actually thought to ask if it had ever had an engine change!!!
I never got to find out what else was not, in his eye, correct (I actually don't think there was/is - not that I am a rivet counter!!!) as I sent him away with a flea in his ear.
I still see him from time to time - he hasn't changed!
So, I too don't frequent shows but fortunately I hadn't travelled 3000kms either.
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I believe there was something in the original SVA rules, saying that non-original parts, may be fitted if the correct parts are not available from the original manufacturers.
Hence my definition of 'original condition' including succession parts e.g. you can buy a new part to replace the worn out/broken/missing one, but it is not necessarily exactly the same.
There is also a distinction between 'being original' and as I said that this should never include consumable parts and 'being in original condition' which is where parts are replaced like for like!
I always tell people that I don't know a lot about 'Land Rovers' but I do know a lot about mine! I also say: "I've had mine for nearly 43 years, well some of it anyway!" We have 'One owner from new' vehicles, so what is someone that has only ever had one Land Rover?
It is always great to see vehicles in any condition still being used, even if they are not in original condition. Now when it comes to people who take a nice 'original condition' vehicle and bling it up......
He told me that 'for a start' it had the wrong engine.
I have said before that I was told my 45D distributor (going back to the 80s) 'should not be on the vehicle' yet I had got it from the Lucas Shop in Birmingham after taking in my DM2 with a cracked casing - they made phone calls and this was the 'succession part' they recommended. I didn't care what shape it was as long as it worked - the Land Rover was my only car back then so had to be kept going. 'Experts' said it was wrong, but Lucas said it was OK - who would you believe? You can also argue that fitting a year correct second hand part makes it a Bitsa whereas a new succession part, or reconditioned original keeps it in 'original condition'.
Sunny Jim