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[2286]

Geoff
whilst what you say about the vehicle being destined to be built in wales and then not is a kick in the teeth for those hoping to work there, that comes down to politics, I fear.  It should not be the decider, the land rover I think is built in eastern europe not lode lane.

Alan Drover
the list of items that you can buy that dont have tech or complexity rammed into them is dwindling by the minute.
Whilst I would have little or non as I am a luddite, those not fortunate enough to already have a series alternative or through age, illness or injury unable to operate one have got to bite the bullet, so to speak.

Worf and Mark Harvey
Re heavy duty, do ineos hope to corner utility company market rather than private car hence the wheelbases and body types offered.

I agree that they both take some stomach to look at, the land rover having been glitzed beyond belief, chrome plastic and piano black overload with styling nods to those that have gone before.  The grenadier is a function over form.
The thing is that we are all so accustomed to a land rovers looks that they both shock and or repulse.

Diffwhine
Are they company cars or test mules, do they have zebra paint work and bits of tent nailed on as I did not think the vehicle had officially launched.
BMW Engines, ZF Transmission, Carraro axles, Eaton locking diffs and the whole lot engineered by Magna Styr is a pretty impressive lineup.

I recognise these names from the world or tractors (carraro made front axle for most 4x4 tractors of the late 70's and early 80's including leyland/marshall, ford and so on.  The larger output tractors had ZF).  Eaton made truck gearboxes and two speed axles I know them from foden and erf.  Styr gave us the panda 4x4 in collaboration with puch.
Carraro are or were italian, bmw german, Styr austrian? Eaton transmissions I always thought were british?  So a just in time material planners nightmare.

I agree the new defender is unlikely to make fleet , in any great numbers.

Grenadier still puts me in mind of UMM alter!  With some G wagon too.

The more stripped back and basic and cheaper will I suspect get the most market share.

Lets not forget series and coil sprung have their flaws but we rate them all the same.

[diffwhine]

Carraro still make axles for the likes of John Deere, JCB amongst others.
Probably best if you look at the Grenadier website for detail on this. It is most certainly not like a UMM Alter. Its been tested in public for two years now. Only very early prototypes werre stripped up. Retail launch is soon - full series production started recently.

Stripped back and basic I'm afrad does not sell - tahts the pickup market. Commercial vehicles built to last and serve a purpose can command a permium which justifies the qulaity of the components. As regards the material planning issue, no manufacturer builds stuff in house any more. It all coms in from global external suppliers - hence the current chip shortage.

[22900013A]

A pity there will be no 3 door option, I don't quite,see a 5 door being so desirable as you can't then fit roller sides for tool access. I suspect if a two door chassis cab is offered then a pod body could be applied, as that's what happens with the D-max etc.

[diffwhine]

I really should spell check my posts... More typos in that than on the BBC News website...

A chassis cab will be the longer term obvious solution.

[22900013A]

Price it right and the utilities can finally get something other than D maxes which are not really designed for that kind of work.

[2286]

Diffwhine
I did have a look on the website but found it very much like land rovers own.  In that you build a vehicle to suit adding bells whistles and cost with the tech detail, which you have listed more than I found!

Way back when tractors were transitioning from 2wd to 4wd and carraro made the axles parts were hard to source and expensive, but that said parts for follow italian brand fiat were the same expensive and hard to come by.  This lead to cobble ups and running things until they would run no more!  Farm I worked on had fiat 540 2wd, 850 2wd and 450 4wd, they were all lashed together.

What I meant by the umm alter comment was a re-engined in their case the excellent (in 505 anyway) 2.5 peugeot engine, they had land rover chassis and axles (or have I misremembered that) and flat panel.  The ineos bulkhead angle and vent delete and larger than def1 screen.  Also has a bonnet slope, not as savage as umm but its there.

The van version using a 5 door is like what lr did with the disco van.

Utility firms are clinging to aging battered lr still in fleet as they are superior to the d-max that seems out of its depth wearing a cherry picker or a box body on the terrain that they tackle.  The unimog whilst capable being a touch big and expensive.

I do understand that if drivers have known nothing but tech in vehicles then if you dont spec it like that then you won't sell them.  But there comes a point when cabin goodies become too much.

Just seen the rear access is by enequal size doors, a la isuzu trooper.

Re spec it says bmw engine zf box and thats all, are you going to get rapped for intellectual property disclosure.

Do eaton make to transfer box?

How many diff locks and how are they engaged, or is it all a colour coded diagram on the screen overwhich there is no human input or choice?

I just like to know what things have, how it works and so on then you can make a decision from there.

Given the phase out of diesel I suspect there is or will be an electric version if there is not already.

I have had a look more in depth and its heavy too and thirsty.  Maybe take out the twin alpine lights and mr2 front roof and focus on the payload and tow capacity.

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, we will have to see how it sells, but lr despite the price seem to be gaining ground and have the jump as its out there on sale.

[diffwhine]

No all - the specs and origins are in the public domain. Most was covered by Mark Evans in his "Building the Grenadier" series. The transfer box is bespoke, but made by Tramec.

Personally I'd suggest that the front end / bonnet line looks far more G-Wagen than UMM.

Standard centre diff lock. Axle diff locks are optional. Most people don't need them as traction control will do most of the job quite happily - you might just get through brake pads a tad fast. Centre diff lock is engaged by a simple lever as per LR and others. The axle locks are engaged by switches in the roof panel.

Anyway - its built now and heading to market and I can't change anything! Having just this morning jumped in and out of several Grenadiers and then come home in a taty old TD5 110, all I can say is that had I got available funds, I'd buy one like a shot (a Grenadier that is, not yet another tatty TD5 110). As it is, I have more pressing priorities, so will just have to keep being paid to drive other people's Grenadiers!.

[Peter Holden]

Geoff
whilst what you say about the vehicle being destined to be built in wales and then not is a kick in the teeth for those hoping to work there, that comes down to politics, I fear.  It should not be the decider, the land rover I think is built in eastern europe not lode lane.

Alan Drover
the list of items that you can buy that dont have tech or complexity rammed into them is dwindling by the minute.
Whilst I would have little or non as I am a luddite, those not fortunate enough to already have a series alternative or through age, illness or injury unable to operate one have got to bite the bullet, so to speak.

Worf and Mark Harvey
Re heavy duty, do ineos hope to corner utility company market rather than private car hence the wheelbases and body types offered.

I agree that they both take some stomach to look at, the land rover having been glitzed beyond belief, chrome plastic and piano black overload with styling nods to those that have gone before.  The grenadier is a function over form.
The thing is that we are all so accustomed to a land rovers looks that they both shock and or repulse.

Diffwhine
Are they company cars or test mules, do they have zebra paint work and bits of tent nailed on as I did not think the vehicle had officially launched.
BMW Engines, ZF Transmission, Carraro axles, Eaton locking diffs and the whole lot engineered by Magna Styr is a pretty impressive lineup.

I recognise these names from the world or tractors (carraro made front axle for most 4x4 tractors of the late 70's and early 80's including leyland/marshall, ford and so on.  The larger output tractors had ZF).  Eaton made truck gearboxes and two speed axles I know them from foden and erf.  Styr gave us the panda 4x4 in collaboration with puch.
Carraro are or were italian, bmw german, Styr austrian? Eaton transmissions I always thought were british?  So a just in time material planners nightmare.

I agree the new defender is unlikely to make fleet , in any great numbers.

Grenadier still puts me in mind of UMM alter!  With some G wagon too.

The more stripped back and basic and cheaper will I suspect get the most market share.

Lets not forget series and coil sprung have their flaws but we rate them all the same.

Eaton supply after market geaboxes for lots of trucks.

I have a friend who many years ago moved from their factory north of manchester to open the brand new factory in St Nazaire.  Their main business there to start with was to supply gearboxes fitted as after market to Renault trucks that were deivered to a depot from the factory, the Renault box was removed and the Eaton box fitted as renault wouldnt supply new trucks with eaton boxes.

Peter

[2286]

No all - the specs and origins are in the public domain. Most was covered by Mark Evans in his "Building the Grenadier" series. The transfer box is bespoke, but made by Tramec.

Personally I'd suggest that the front end / bonnet line looks far more G-Wagen than UMM.

Standard centre diff lock. Axle diff locks are optional. Most people don't need them as traction control will do most of the job quite happily - you might just get through brake pads a tad fast. Centre diff lock is engaged by a simple lever as per LR and others. The axle locks are engaged by switches in the roof panel.

Anyway - its built now and heading to market and I can't change anything! Having just this morning jumped in and out of several Grenadiers and then come home in a taty old TD5 110, all I can say is that had I got available funds, I'd buy one like a shot (a Grenadier that is, not yet another tatty TD5 110). As it is, I have more pressing priorities, so will just have to keep being paid to drive other people's Grenadiers!.

I read that too quickly or have dyslexia I thought it said transfer box by TARMAC!

Jimny grille, umm screen bulkhead trooper rear as g never had two doors.

So what bits do Eaton contribute?

I did note the switches on the roof, but thought that would be the top of the range only as brochures tend to focus on.

I dont need to tell you that lr product was flawed and showing its age and frailty have been underfunded and made to borrow from the parts bins.

Bmw engine, zf (similar or same as range rover) is going to be worlds away.

Suspension is 5 link too according to the blurb, are the axles beam f and r if at all?

Is the mark evans doc only on posh tv channels as yet not freeview or similar.

Romahome, I had it in my mind that eatons primary market these days is the usa?

[Peter Holden]

May well be I am.going back quite a few years.  I believe they closed the Manchester factory at that time.  The St Nazaire factory was a brand new purpose built factory

[martinthefirst]

You can watch the episodes here:

https://ineosgrenadier.com/en/gb/explore/the-grenadier-videos-and-stories/building-the-grenadier

[Worf]

Hearing some horror stories about the current Ingenium JLR engines. Timing chain failure at 30,000 miles and a nightmare to fix even with the "specialist tools". Lost the plot after 300tdi.

[diffwhine]

I read that too quickly or have dyslexia I thought it said transfer box by TARMAC!

Jimny grille, umm screen bulkhead trooper rear as g never had two doors.

So what bits do Eaton contribute?

I did note the switches on the roof, but thought that would be the top of the range only as brochures tend to focus on.

I dont need to tell you that lr product was flawed and showing its age and frailty have been underfunded and made to borrow from the parts bins.

Bmw engine, zf (similar or same as range rover) is going to be worlds away.

Suspension is 5 link too according to the blurb, are the axles beam f and r if at all?

Is the mark evans doc only on posh tv channels as yet not freeview or similar.

Romahome, I had it in my mind that eatons primary market these days is the usa?

Eaton supply the locking differentials for the Cararo axles. All pretty solid robust stuff
Yes- 5 link suspesnion and beam axles front and rear. Incredibly stable on the road and mind-blowingly impressive off road. I know just a bit about offf road driving and have driven pretty much every 4x4 available over the last 50 years or so and my recent off road driving experience really blew me away.

I learned many years ago to never knock the opposition. The Defender is also a phenominal beast - just too high tech for me. I used to run a technical support team for Land Rover and many of the people who worked for me now work as master techs in various dealers all over the world. I get scared when thye struggle to fix them and these are people with decades of JLR experience. And we will say no more about the Ingenium engine please - it leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. Suffice to say that I would never, ever, ever, ever have one unless somebody else was paying for my engine changes...

[2286]

You can watch the episodes here:

https://ineosgrenadier.com/en/gb/explore/the-grenadier-videos-and-stories/building-the-grenadier

Thanks I will have a look.

Worf Is that chain failure due to oil starvation, or not being heavy duty enough.  Either way if its not an isolated case, due to bad batch or qc it is going to gain bad reputation.

Diffwhine
Are the diff locks air or electric actuated?

I had double take on what axle type was used axle the rear end pictured had a bash plate, skid guard and phenomenal ground clearance, the 17" wheel would help that.

I am totally in agreement that until something has been experienced first hand it should not be judged.  People slated suzuki sj and jimny, but they go places that you would not expect. Albeit in a slightly different way.  The early jimny had a full mechanical transfer, then for some reason they opted to go for an electric mag clutch or similar, meaning that if the vehicle stalled then it deselected and sometimes would not re-engage.

Would you agree that unimog is the best if cost is no object and off road is your bread and butter.

With a thought to utility companies, land rover offered the ready equipped defender through special vehicles department.  I appreciate that was some years back but the price tag on those was close to starting base vehicle price on def2 and gren.

Also given the start weight of gren, what will gvw be with a platform on the back?  Has it been trialled or considered.

Along the same lines what scope is there for pto for gren and def2.  Are we looking at underbonnet engine take offs only? 

[diffwhine]

I can't answer all those questions but...
Diff locks are electric - solenoid activated.
Unimog - yes, but big - too big for most people.
Pricing is aimed at special vehicle builds, not fleet utility volume - you can't compete with cheap pickups which suit most (not all I agree) users. You build a special vehicle and the premium is on longetivity to get your return.
Platform and so on - I don't know yet - its part of ongoing discussions.
No to PTOs - most systems these days use electric hydraulic pumps, so no need for a transmission or engine drive. Even fire engines can run this way nowadays.