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[22900013A]

An interesting discussion, now I will admit up front I've not seen the article in question, but I get the gist of whats gone on.
I can only echo the sentiments written above, at least for me these are not just old cars to do with as we wish, they are "historic" vehicles and that opens up a whole can of worms. There are a few issues I have though. Firstly, I think we tend to over-estimate just how common these vehicles are. They aren't. How often do you see an otherwise unknown II, IIA, IIB merrily driving around the roads near you? Exactly. Although there are often several for sale, at dealers or online, how many of those could honestly be said to be to original specification, or even 95% to original specification, or even 75%? Again, not many. Whilst of course motor vehicles include consumable parts such as oil, gaskets, filters etc, I think its a bit much to suggest that changing a petrol filter "loses originality". I'd say it doesn't, so long as its the correct spec. When we start going down the line of engine swaps, diff swaps, change of body style etc we are getting further and further from "original". But its interesting that even "original" need not necessarily mean "as-built". At the factory my 109" was a plain van, but quickly gained a winch and roof rack before going to work. I'd argue therefore the winch and roof rack are part of its "originality". Now, some bits have had to be changed over the years, most notably the engine, but it is at least the original type of engine and indeed most of the ancillaries are taken from the original block.
I've had plenty of folk over the years suggest a Tdi fitment and gearbox change would make it a "more useable vehicle" but that, to me, would detract too much from what it is. I definitely see it as reflecting its own early history as well as that of its working industry in a more general sense.
Its a little sad to see how "rivet counter" has become a slur, I appreciate not everyone enjoys poring over parts books or historic literature but some of us do enjoy it. I suppose it comes up from the way some folks will wade in, uninvited, to nit-pick a vehicle, but really its usually invited. I also think its important on a forum to correct erroneous information where posted, knowingly or unknowingly, by other users, and should not be taken as a personal attack.

[LN11AAB498A]

What about a letter to the editor

You're suggesting the magazine has some responsibility here for not promoting the destruction of old Land Rovers?
 

[TimV]

LROI = Land Rover Owner International. Still can't find it!

[Craig T]

I gave up on LRO many years ago as they seemed to be going down the modifying and off road route too much for my liking. Off course they were also covering newer vehicles that also didn't appeal to me.

Unfortunately the Classic Land Rover mag has gone a similar way in some recent articles in my opinion.

It's interesting though that some people think converting and modifying an old Land Rover is acceptable. Just imagine the uproar and the lynch mob going to the owners house if someone did a TDI conversion on an early 1960's Jag E-Type or Aston Martin..... Why are Land Rovers viewed differently than these vehicles?

Craig.

[LN11AAB498A]

LROI = Land Rover Owner International. Still can't find it!

Spring edition with an Orange G4 on the cover 
 

[TimV]

Maybe the printed edition is different to the on-line edition? Definitely not there - a six wheel RR classic is on page 74.

[LN11AAB498A]

Maybe the printed edition is different to the on-line edition? Definitely not there - a six wheel RR classic is on page 74.

You're correct. That one is April  . The Spring Edition must be a bonus for paper subscribers 
 

[oddjob]

It’s the special under the counter edition for people who like modding their cars!

 

[ChrisJC]

The downside to this of course is that there are some people who you will never see at a meet, nor will you see pictures of their Series II on here for fear of the pillorying. You might see them in LRO though.

I wonder what the DVLA make of it all.

Chris.

P.S. There is a thriving business in bringing E-Types and the like up to a modern spec:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/6967393/is-this-the-ultimate-e-type-1970s-jaguar-refitted-with-modern-tech-and-highest-specification-ever/
https://www.eaglegb.com/187/jaguar-e-type-special-editions
https://www.driving.co.uk/car-reviews/the-clarkson-review-jenson-interceptor-r-supercharged-2014/

[LN11AAB498A]

I can only echo the sentiments written above, at least for me these are not just old cars to do with as we wish, they are "historic" vehicles. I think we tend to over-estimate just how common these vehicles are. They aren't. How often do you see an otherwise unknown II, IIA, IIB merrily driving around the roads near you? Exactly. I think its a bit much to suggest that changing a petrol filter "loses originality". I'd say it doesn't, When we start going down the line of engine swaps, diff swaps, change of body style etc we are getting further and further from "original". "original" need not necessarily mean "as-built".
I've had plenty of folk over the years suggest a Tdi fitment and gearbox change would make it a "more useable vehicle" but that, to me, would detract too much from what it is. I definitely see it as reflecting its own early history as well as that of its working industry in a more general sense.
Its a little sad to see how "rivet counter" has become a slur, I appreciate not everyone enjoys poring over parts books or historic literature but some of us do enjoy it. I suppose it comes up from the way some folks will wade in, uninvited, to nit-pick a vehicle, but really its usually invited. I also think its important on a forum to correct erroneous information where posted, knowingly or unknowingly, by other users, and should not be taken as a personal attack.

Hi, I like your arguments and your points about rarity are very well made. 

From these posts it seems that assessing originality comes down to a matter of degrees. What is acceptable to one is not to another and who is to say which is right? not I.
 

[oddjob]

I’ve modified cars all my life. Can’t help myself. In the 80’s I was modifying’60’s mini’s.
I enjoy it. Wouldn’t own a hobby car I couldn’t mess with but then again I could never afford nice cars so would buy knackered ones and get them back on the road.
I love my Tdi and disc brakes which perhaps makes me a bad person but my Land Rover was never going to be a nice original one. It’s had over 18 owners for a start and has changed colour many times according to the v888 form.

But then again it is what it is. If you look on the LROi website they are advertising the oldest series 2 in the world for sale. It looks like a nice original  series 2 which should please the anti-modifiers. But it’s changed colour and gained a hardtop in its life. It’s also got a replacement chassis, bulkhead, and axles so it’s been pulled apart as much as my old heap.

Each to their own but I do agree the ones that have lasted 60 years mostly intact should be left alone but there’s plenty of old bitsa’s for owners to tinker with.
The main thing is that they are out being used, not sat in collections.
 

[agg221]

The downside to this of course is that there are some people who you will never see at a meet, nor will you see pictures of their Series II on here for fear of the pillorying. You might see them in LRO though.

There can be all sorts of reasons why people do not attend meets.

It would be sad if there are people who do not post pictures of their vehicles on here for fear of what might happen. I can honestly say that I haven't seen an occasion where someone has said hello and posted a picture of their vehicle which has not been met with a positive response, even if it has been heavily modified.

Perhaps the difference between the two types of threads gets overlooked but generally you can tell from the first post - it is typically either 'this is my vehicle' or 'please tell me what you can see about this vehicle' that takes it off down a particular train of thought. The latter occurred on another thread from yesterday where someone was considering buying a vehicle on Ebay and asked for comment. I am mindful that if the buyer saw the comment they may feel they were being criticised but actually the vehicle was being analysed, constructively, on behalf of a potential buyer who valued certain features. The comment was not judgemental on other people's choices.

Personally, I must admit that I value originality (under a particular definition which relates to conservation rather than restoration) and choose to do that to my own vehicles. It would be nice to think that when I pass them on, it will be to someone who values the same things and all the work I have done will be appreciated, but it won't be my choice (and I will be dead so I won't care). I would also rather see things used for their intended purpose than preserved in aspic - one of the things I don't enjoy about the Science Museum. I have old clocks and watches for the same reason.

Alec (who lives in a Grade II listed house)

[genocache]

Maybe we can agree to disagree.
LR says 75% of all Rovers are still on the road,...if true that's a lot of Series Rovers. Which would lead to thinking there is not a dearth of "historic" vehicles still in good nick.
You don't live in a part of the World where it takes modification and ingenuity to keep a Landy going, part of that may mean swapping in that 4bt, as it's the only engine on the Island.
Rivet Counters are not a bad thing per say, to me it's like religious fanatics, fine for you, just don't condemn me because I used a frelling pop rivet instead of the "proper" solid rivet.
I paid my hard earned for my car, I get to do with it as I wish. You paid your hard earned for your car, you get to do what you wish.

[w3526602]

Hi,

A couple of counter arguments.

If we/you/me didn't salvage or scrap old clunkers, the wouldn't be rare, so probably not very interesting, and likely to be worthless. Me? I always tried so get in near the chrysalis stage.

I have read suggestions that the Hot Rod fraternity may have saved many an old jalopy, just by "being". The argument was that the Vandals increased the demand for new componemts, thereby encouraging various entrepenuers to meet our demand for the little spares. How many specialists would survive by just reconditioning steering wheels.

Unfortunately for me (but benefiting others), try finding a project S2, for under a couple thousand pounds.    Somebody will be looking for breakers, and thereby depriving the enthusiast of a project.

Do and Ebay search for Series 2s for up to £2,000.  You will find at least one potential buyer running a continuous WANTED advert, and offering that sort of money. OK, I agreed that Matey will roll up with a transporter, and a bundle of cash ... and start negotiating after the deal had been agreed. I even met a dealer who drove a hunderd miles, happy to pay £5,000 for Barbara's pristine, original shape, Honda CRX, only to kick the tyres and drop his offer to £4,000.

We paid £250 for Barbara's Reliant Sabre, drove it into the ground, managed to sell the remains for £350,  nine years later. We later heard that the buyer "asset stripped" it (Engine, gearbox, back axle, recent chrome wire wheels and tyres, new fibreglass bonnet, and factory show car GTE front suspension and complete disc brakes), and sold the dregs for £5,000.

I can't complain. The deal was that the buyer would put it back on the road ..which he sort of did ... it's now a Historic Racing Car ... valued at over £40,000. If anybody knows the current owner, I'm sure Barbara would like to meet it again, give it a stroke, in exchange for some of our photos.

We entered this car in the first and second Sabre Days, at Droys Court. Barbara had a go at Grass Autotesting ... great fun driving a  16cwt car with a straight six Ford Zodiac engine, on wet grass.

Barbara slid it round one one traffic cone, lined up on the next, gave it some welly. The bloke sitting on the cone gave a howl of protest,  and departed on his toes. We learned later that that particular cone was not part of the course. Oops!

602

[Clifford Pope]

House`s have English Heritage to protect them from those who would tear them down,

That's a modern invention. For most of their lives historic houses had no protection whatsoever, and were at the whim of owners who pulled them down, modified them, grandified them, turned them into farmhouses, regency eccentricities, gothic reconstructions, the variations were endless. Some extensive modifications have totally hidden or destroyed the originals, some are now regarded as brilliant architechtural gems.

I don't think the analogy really works. It only needs a handul of preserved examples of cars to fully demonstrate the brilliance of the designers - most of them are around in their hundreds or thousands, nearly all the same. Historic houses are relatively rare by comparison, and each is unique.