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[Peter Holden]

A bit of an odd request but does anyone know hgow to date a 19J engine.

I have been asked to help someone in trouble with DVLA, due to the loss of the chassis number on the dumb iron DVLA want it to go either the built up classic route (dating each major component and guess what it has a 19J fitted) or the Q reg route with an IVA (this one is a non starter).

Peter

[Davidss]

... does anyone know how to date a 19J engine....

I translate that to be you are looking for a database that matches 19J engine numbers to a build year.
I recall, without checking, that the 19J engine (2.5 turbocharged diesel) was introduced with the 90 / 110 model, succeeding the Series 3.

I suspect that it is so far from your normal S2 / S2A era that you have not captured any details yourself, and are perhaps not aware of information that may (or may not) be contained within the relevant Workshop Manuals or Parts Listings. Also, perhaps you don't have the 90 / 110 manuals / lists to look at?

Also there may be data on specialist sites, such as Turner Engineering, or even Wikipedia.

Or were you seeking to date the engine by more subtle means?

Regards.

[Peter Holden]

David

You are spot on.

Whilst we are a club primariy for S2s and our collective knowledge is second to none where they are concerned, in DVLAs eyes we can also be used for S3 land rovers although we dont have the same level of knowledge or resources but after that I at least have no knowledge nor would I know where to look for support.

Without going into detail, It is the usual situation, someone bought a S3, got in touch with DVLA to change a couple of things on the V5 that they didnt need to.  Unfortunately the DVLA operative didnt understand land rovers and thought a monocoque had been modified and instigated an inspection which threw up the absence of a chassis number stamped on the chassis.  Although the original premise at DVLA was wrong it is not possible to reverse the situation because of the discovery of no "identifier" on the chassis.  DVLA have issued a 17 digit VIN and have offered the built up classic or Q reg solutions.  For a S2 no problem we have extensive information at our finger tips.  Not so for a S3 and I am anticipating difficulties over the chassis but we are dead in the water if i cannot prove the build year of the engine.

Peter

[Mowersman]

As far as I know, you won't be able to date the engine. they were introduced in 1986 and as far as I know discontinued in 1990. I have never seen anything to suggest what serial numbers were built what year and never seen any other date stamps to identify them. Only hope may be dates on the electrical equipment and fuel injection pump.
Andrew

[Peter Holden]

Thanks Andrew, I thought that would be the case, If DVLA will accept a date for the engine it will have to be 1990 when Land Rover stopped production.  The chassis is going to be similar in that it is between 1972 and 1985 although the chassis number is known I might be able to use Glass's checkbookfor that.  If like 2as the numbers are consecutive then the checkbook will tell me the approximate year

This is going to be a hard one I think.

It just shows that people need to do a lot of asking before they go near DVLA and also the importance of stamping the chassis number on the dumb iron.

Peter

[Genem]

I translate that to be you are looking for a database that matches 19J engine numbers to a build year.
I recall, without checking, that the 19J engine (2.5 turbocharged diesel) was introduced with the 90 / 110 model, succeeding the Series 3.

I suspect that it is so far from your normal S2 / S2A era that you have not captured any details yourself, and are perhaps not aware of information that may (or may not) be contained within the relevant Workshop Manuals or Parts Listings. Also, perhaps you don't have the 90 / 110 manuals / lists to look at?

Also there may be data on specialist sites, such as Turner Engineering, or even Wikipedia.

Or were you seeking to date the engine by more subtle means?

Regards.

Part of the ethos of this Club is, I thought, to be pleasant and helpful. The tone of the response above fails that test significantly. It comes over as arrogant and "snotty" ....to a well respected Club Officer who is trying his best to help some unfortunate soul who has fallen foul of DVLA. Its utterly uncalled for and should be withdrawn.

[Bradley66]

As far as the chassis number is concerned you will able to date it either 1971 - 75 , 1975 - 79 or post 1979 when VIN numbers were introduced.

[Davidss]

From his 'spot on' response Romahomepete read it differently, fortunately, as I wasn't being arrogant and snotty, I was just trying to establish what I should be looking for, as I have the Workshop manuals and Parts lists for the 90 / 110.

By the time I had finished my research Moogling had provided the same conclusions my research had led me to. These had clearly been accepted by Romahomepete, so there was no benefit in me saying more.

Regards.

[Peter Holden]

Unless it has a VIN (and it might, there is a suspicion that it could be 1980) I should be able using Glass's checkbook prove a specific year.  DVLA will accept that evidence, my issue is that the number is not on the chassis but anywhere between 1971 and 1985 will be good enough (and I can do that) as the engine is post 85 and the built up classic date will be based on the engine as the newest major component.  The trick will be getting DVLA to accept my "proof".

Peter

[diffwhine]

JLR should have record of which vehicle this engine was fitted to originally. that would be the simplest way to date the engine as its highly unlikely that Land Rover would have carried stock for the line eve in those days. Engines were built according to demand. Mind you, this was during my time at LR so anything is possible...

Nobody sane would buy a new 19J engine to fit to a different vehicle, so presumably it should be traceable on factory records. I know this is possible as I have had to do a similar exercise when at Land Rover with some escaped 200Tdi engines. Traceability (as it was then) came back with all the details working from just an engine number. I've even had one success with a 1989 LT230 Transfer Box. Its quite a common issue with tracking down stolen vehicle parts, so JLR certainly used to be good at keeping records and being able to cross reference.

[Peter Holden]

Yes but trying to get any information from Jaguar Land Rover is like trying to get blood out of a stone.

Peter

[Sunny Jim]

I am sure a lot of readers of this post are now intrigued as it could just as well happen to members with Series 2s and later engines in our vehicles! It would be nice at the end of the day to get a summary of the outcome of this for the benefit of the readership.

One question that you may be able to answer: if you get an age related plate based on the 'newest' component for what they are calling a 'built up' vehicle, can you transfer on an older, age appropriate number at a later date, or is this verboten like for a Q plate? This would at least make the vehicle look right, especially in a case where the age of the vehicle is actually known with some degree of certainty?

I assume using the newest bit for dating purposes is to stop someone building up a relatively modern vehicle and sticking in an old part, such as the engine, to get tax/MOT exemptions?

Needless to say, my chassis is stamped in several places!

Maybe this problem needs making known via various LR publications for people to check and stamp their chassis, to try and reduce the numbers of problems in the future, and save vehicles from unnecessary loss of identity?

Sunny Jim

[Peter Holden]

Hi Jim
The answer to your question is I don't know.
I have never seen a built up classic registration document but I would work on the assumption that once you have the registration a located that is it?

My weekends reading is to go through the built up vehicle documentation.

I have a suspicious feeling that you will have to prove the provenance of each major part.  That is the owners problem,  the vro's job will be to  inspect and try to confirm the dates.

I have already decided to write an article for B2L.
Peter

[diffwhine]

Yes but trying to get any information from Jaguar Land Rover is like trying to get blood out of a stone.

Peter

Peter - I know... I use to be part of that stone...! Do you have a good connection with a local Main LR dealer within their service team? There is a dealer process for this sort of thing, but given the age and complexity of this one, you sort of need to know somebody to get any traction. I can't promise, but I might be able to help if you PM me with a bit of detail.

[Peter Holden]

Thanks Andy
I need some more information from the owner. 
I think they need to understand that it is going to be a slow process with no guarantee of success.

However I did hear from another satisfied club member yesterday who now has a V5 registration document that actually matches their vehicle accurately.  DVLA wanted a letter from land rover for part of this but they accepted my explantion for how they had made the errors.

Peter