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Main Section => Welcome to our virtual Pub Meeting ... => Topic started by: crumbly65 on August 14, 2021, 02:20:30 PM
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Anyone experiencing problems with the garage's supply of Super Unleaded petrol?
I've been in to a couple of my usual fill-up places over the last 3 weeks, and I usually put the super stuff in, but it's been unobtainable at the pumps......... :stars
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They still have it at Tesco near me, but if it drys up what should we do?
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Just use the ordinary stuff. They were built to run on poor quality fuel so I suspect that, like adding "leaded" additives, money is being wasted. Save the difference for an unleaded head in 20 years time and perhaps replace the fuel lines ?
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Concerned about E10, I guess. How much of the fuel supply system needs to be changed to make it safe?
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Not had a problem with premium (other than the price) but the new E10 has put a massive flat spot on the power band of my 2007 Fiesta 1.25... it wasn't exactly a race car originally but the original output being so low to start with has made the loss of oomph between 2000-3000rpm all too obvious.
Worst part is because it's "modern" I can't even tweak the mixture or timing to get it back
Neal
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Chuck the new stuff in it. Mine runs well on it. A metre of fuel line is 6 quid from Halfords if needed.
I put new cheapo fuel hose in last year and running on E5 it lasted less than a year. Fortunately less than 10 mins to put a new bit of hose in. Buying from somewhere like Halfords mean you know it is going to be up to the job.
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Will E10 do damage to the pump seals, electric or Lift pumps, or the seals in the carb ???
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^^^ that's what I was wondering
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E10. Sneak it into all fuel.
One way of getting rid of old cars on the road ?
whitehillbilly
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I've just read this-
https://www.bellperformance.com/blog/how-to-protect-your-classic-car-from-modern-ethanol-fuel-problems
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Holden Vintage & Classic (https://www.holden.co.uk/blog/does-e10-petrol-pose-a-threat-to-classic-cars/) issued this newsletter the other day.
Am I worried ... NO
All the rubbers and seals in mine are new(ish) and rated to be used with E10.
You can also add a drop of various additives that will counter the effect of E10, prolong the "life" of the fuel (as used in garden machinery - Briggs & Stratton for example) and give the fuel an octane "boost".
The change is nothing like the loss of lead in petrol - we can manage without lead. You just need to be aware of what
rubbery parts you have in your fuel system and their age - when did you last replace them ???
The pipes and o-rings and other seals you buy today will withstand E10.
Happy days :petrol_pump
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Hi,
My understanding is that higher octane fuels were developed to slow down the "flame rate".
Raising the compression ratio speeded up the "flame rate", leading to "pinking" (and possibly dents in Granny Rover bonnets, due to holes burning in piston crowns, followed by dip sticks being fired out of the engines.
Increased compression ratios led to the demise of the starting handle, as Granny (the lady) was either unable to spin the engine by hand, or, kick-back would break her wrist.
Arguably, running high octatane fuel in a low compression engine will reduce power, but it might feel smoother, due to slower burn.
Me? I'd just fill up with the expensive stuff. :whistle
602
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I've just read this-
https://www.bellperformance.com/blog/how-to-protect-your-classic-car-from-modern-ethanol-fuel-problems
Is there a typo in that document?
7. Use a non-alcohol based fuel treatment to prevent excessive water collection in your fuel. Ethanol based fuel treatments worsen problems caused by E10 gas.
Should that read “Alcohol based fuel treatments worsen problems” rather than “Ethanol based fuel treatments worsen problems”.
A small point I know but potentially an important point.
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I refuelled my Land Rover at my local Jet filling station last week.
I usually go there but hadn't filled up for a while.
Noticed that the pumps had E10 stickers on them that weren't there before.
Anyway, the Land Rover seemed to run very well after after this fill up. Better than before.
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As Alan says if you have e 10 rated rubber parts should solve most problems.
Also any steel fuel,lines may be encouraged to rust. Apparently the float solder may suffer and the alloy in carbs corrode.
I did ready up and another issue is the bottom of carbs, tanks etc can accumulate acidic liquid not helping things.
Drain taps all round!
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I refuelled my Land Rover at my local Jet filling station last week.
I usually go there but hadn't filled up for a while.
Noticed that the pumps had E10 stickers on them that weren't there before.
Anyway, the Land Rover seemed to run very well after after this fill up. Better than before.
A lot of places will be putting the E10 stickers on beforehand even though E5 will still be in the tanks. It's so they don't get caught out on switch over day. With the wrong sticker on the pumps but E10 in the tanks. Ask them if they are now dispensing E10.
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Is there a typo in that document?
7. Use a non-alcohol based fuel treatment to prevent excessive water collection in your fuel. Ethanol based fuel treatments worsen problems caused by E10 gas.
Should that read “Alcohol based fuel treatments worsen problems” rather than “Ethanol based fuel treatments worsen problems”.
A small point I know but potentially an important point.
Not exactly.... alcohol is the generic name for a range of chemically similar products. Ethanol (Ethyl alcohol) is the stuff that gets you drunk before it poisons you, methanol (methyl alcohol) is nasty stuff not sure about propanol and butanol.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_fuel
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E10 means 'up to 10% ethanol' so you can sell E5 petrol from a pump with an E10 sticker, but not the other way round.
This is how the companies that say there is no ethanol in their petrol still sell it as E5.
Andrew
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How much are all y'all paying for fuel petrol over there in the UK?
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How much are all y'all paying for fuel petrol over there in the UK?
Hi Correus.
In my neck of the woods, a semi-rural South-East location, 20 miles or so from London, I currently pay an average of £1.32 per litre (£6.02 per imperial gallon) to fill my Series 2. That's generally using standard 4 star E5. I sometimes use the Premium 4 star with lower ethanol, so that may skew my average price slightly.
If I use the Premium 4 Star all the time, the average price goes up to £1.42 per litre (£6.47 per imperial gallon).
Those figures are based on my usage over the last year......
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Hi Correus.
In my neck of the woods, a semi-rural South-East location, 20 miles or so from London, I currently pay an average of £1.32 per litre (£6.02 per imperial gallon) to fill my Series 2. That's generally using standard 4 star E5. I sometimes use the Premium 4 star with lower ethanol, so that may skew my average price slightly.
If I use the Premium 4 Star all the time, the average price goes up to £1.42 per litre (£6.47 per imperial gallon).
Those figures are based on my usage over the last year......
DANG!!!! :agh :agh :agh
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DANG!!!! :agh :agh :agh
Precisely!! So what are you paying per US gallon?
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Precisely!! So what are you paying per US gallon?
I'm embarrassed to say... in my area of Kansas we are paying $2.92 for regular, $2.98 for premium and $3.05 for diesel per gallon.
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Isn't a US gallon about 7 imperial pints?
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Isn't a US gallon about 7 imperial pints?
Yes - 6.7.
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Oh you lucky devils!
So if a US gallon is about £2.12p, I guess our Imperial gallon would be around £2.40ish.
Even allowing for the fact that US distances between places are greater than on our crowded isle, meaning personal transport (cars & trucks etc) is more essential, and public transport is more widely available here, that is a sizeable price difference.
Do you think that's due to the fact the USA has it's own oil production, as opposed to the UK having to rely on Middle Eastern imported oil?
Or is it more the result of the UK tax policies "milking" our personal transport, as it's seen as less essential to normal life than the US model?
Interesting hi-jack of the thread Correus, thank you. That's what makes this forum so great......
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^^^^ Most of our oil "imports" come from Norway. Its Liquid gas that we get from the Mid-East I believe ?
The really annoying thing about tax on fuel is that the companies producing it are paying almost nothing in production based Taxes at the moment, some years recently they've even had rebates. HMG have a captive market so take tax on the fuel, VAT on top and get the petrol companies to collect it for them. Wonderful.
....how will they replace that revenue as we switch to electric cars ?
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Oh you lucky devils!
So if a US gallon is about £2.12p, I guess our Imperial gallon would be around £2.40ish.
Even allowing for the fact that US distances between places are greater than on our crowded isle, meaning personal transport (cars & trucks etc) is more essential, and public transport is more widely available here, that is a sizeable price difference.
Do you think that's due to the fact the USA has it's own oil production, as opposed to the UK having to rely on Middle Eastern imported oil?
Or is it more the result of the UK tax policies "milking" our personal transport, as it's seen as less essential to normal life than the US model?
Interesting hi-jack of the thread Correus, thank you. That's what makes this forum so great......
That's a complex issue... one reason our fuel prices are lower is that the US controls the petrodollar - it's becoming more iffy though. We were self sufficient for the past few years - until the current regime took over and put a stop to it. Before the regime change fuel prices were typically between $1.00 - $0.50 cheaper depending on the area of the country you live in. Now the new 'leader' is begging OPEC to sell us more.
There is more to it, but that's it in a nutshell.
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I reckon electricity used for charging will be metered separately for home charging and a fuel tax and VAT levied to be collected by the supplier of the electricity as the oil companies do at present. Public charging points will have the same set up.
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All the rubbers and seals in mine are new(ish) and rated to be used with E10.
Hi Allan,
Does that mean that NEW replacement components (eg: hoses, and pump diaphragms, etc) sold today, have to be fit for today's purpose, even though NOS may not be? ... if you see what I'm getting at.
Er, working on an "exchange rate of 0.7", (which is easier for mental arithmetic than 0.67), an old Landy doing 20 miles per Imperial will only be doing 14 miles per US gallon. I always work on 5 litres to the Imperial gallon, but suspect that is only a vague translation.
I'm glad to say that, being a pensioner, when the fuel gauge reads quarter full, I simply brim the tank, without noticing the quantity nor price (Doesn't everyone?). I let Barbara worry about economising ... elsewhere, where I don't feel it.
Fuel economy might become important, if fuel was ever rationed. If push comes to shove, I have some experience of Shetland ponies, and donkeys, and even goats (milk and meat). I have "milked" a Shetland mare. I believe that mules give the most "grunt per buck", but are intelligent enough to realise there is a "better life" ... and can/will kick backwards, forwards, and sideways.
I have seen pictures of goats pulling carts carrying disabled children. One of my goats gave a gallon of milk per day. Lamas can be ridden, pull a cart, and eaten, also worn as a hide, or knitted fleece. There IS an alternative to Mad Max, but not as much fun.
602
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All the rubbers and seals in mine are new(ish) and rated to be used with E10.
Does that mean that NEW replacement components (eg: hoses, and pump diaphragms, etc) sold today, have to be fit for today's purpose, even though NOS may not be? ... if you see what I'm getting at.
Yes
And one should be very wary of what's being sold on eBay as people dump their old stocks.
Cheap isn't always best.
:RHD
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I reckon electricity used for charging will be metered separately for home charging and a fuel tax and VAT levied to be collected by the supplier of the electricity as the oil companies do at present. Public charging points will have the same set up.
I'm not sure how the infrastructure would need to be changed to make that work. I have a Zoe and use a zappi charger. The latter does 'record' non solar PV charging but all the electrickery goes through the house 'Smart' import/ export meter.
Yes the Government will be looking to replace all that revenue they will be losing from diesel/ petrol sales but it isn't clear how at this time.
Regards
Richard
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I'm embarrassed to say... in my area of Kansas we are paying $2.92 for regular, $2.98 for premium and $3.05 for diesel per gallon.
It really is about time our colleagues across the pond started paying the same levels of duty on fuel as in most places in Europe, call it a start on doing their bit to limit climate change!!!!
Regards
Richard
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Filled my 2A up today with E5 super at Morrisons----- £140.9 per litre!!! :stars
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Filled my 2A up today with E5 super at Morrisons----- £140.9 per litre!!! :stars
Am I reading this correctly - £140.9 per litre?!?!
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Am I reading this correctly - £140.9 per litre?!?!
Yep!
You can find cheaper if you shop around and drive for miles, but locally around here in South West London it's £1.45 per litre.
Stay safe
BW
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Filled up the other day with BP's finest 95 E5 at £1.30.9. This at a garage not far from Glasgow and in an area where a lot of footballers live so Rangies, big BMWs, Massarati and Bentley Conti's etc, queuing up. Still the cheapest in our area beating even our local ASDA which only sells dreadful stuff.
Dave.
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^^^ Whilst people say harse things about Supermarket petrol, have tests been done, is it true ???
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97 octane is currently £1.50 in the station nearest to me . Which means a full tank in my C-class is approaching £100.
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Yep!
You can find cheaper if you shop around and drive for miles, but locally around here in South West London it's £1.45 per litre.
Stay safe
BW
£1.45 is a bit different than £140.9... :-X
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Am I reading this correctly - £140.9 per litre?!?!
Nope, the decimal point is in the wrong place, £1.409 per litre. Of itself a silly garage trick, trying not to admit the fuel is £1.41 a litre really !
A very large % is tax, 20% VAT ( Sales tax to US readers) on top of 58p/Litre in Fuel Duty, so of the price we pay more than half is tax, collected for the Govt my the forecourt operators.
Meanwhile the companies actually producing it are paying very little tax at all:
" Since 2008-09 UK oil and gas revenues have fallen from £10.6 billion (0.7 per cent of GDP) to £0.6 billion (0.03 per cent of GDP) in 2019-20. The fall in receipts has largely been driven by falling production and higher tax-deductible expenditure. The rate of petroleum revenue tax and the supplementary charge have also been cut substantially." OBR Figures.
Note that the producing companies are able to claim rebates against tax paid in previous years for "losses" like decommissioning, while overall tax rates have been reduced. In some previous years we have effectively been paying the oil Industry to take the stuff away.
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In some previous years we have effectively been paying the oil Industry to take the stuff away.
Hi,
Following one of my mis-fueling incidents, I found I was paying something like £0.06 per litre fuel tax, for disposal.
Sometime later, I met a Chevy 6x6 truck (ex- Korean War, as seen in the MASH TV series) on the jetty, waiting for the Newhaven to France ferry. The driver told me that whenever possible, he ran on "misfuel" (free), as his truck was capable of running on both petrol and diesel. The exhaust stank.
602
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The refineries in this country all produce the basic fuels the difference between brands is in the additives which are added to the delivery tankers when they fill up. The oil companies have reciprocal agreements to supply basic fuel to one another. There are two refineries in Immingham which supply all the companies in the east midlands trading the fuel on the Rotterdam spot market.
Alec
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The E10 scam is operating here now. I went to refuel at the Texaco station I use because it's cheaper than the nearer to home Shell station and all the petrol pumps were for E10. No super unleaded sold there. So it was back to the Shell station where I refuelled with V Power at the eye watering price of £1.499 per litre!!!!!! 99 octane petrol in an engine designed to run on 2 star. What a con.
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Chuck some paraffin in to dilute it
Peter
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You need to be careful when comparing modern RON rated fuel with the old octane system or the later STAR system.
RON does not equate to octane or star :shakeinghead
This is why you shouldn't dice in and use the octane ratings when timing your vehicle today.
The manuals were written years ago and RON wasn't invented.
Modern fuel (sometimes called "petrol") is not what is was when Series 2s first appeared.
What's sold now is quite low in octane value, nearer to "pool" petrol of yesteryear.
.... and this is why we are having problems with the dilution of petrol with ethanol (ethyl alcohol).
The premium fuels are a little better.
You need to do some road tests and calculations to see if the premium fuels are better for your vehicle.
Regarding diesel, the premium diesels have a cetane booster (petrols equivalent of octane rating).
On a good run I notice a little more power (easier when running up gradients) and smoother running.
Whether the extra cost justifies using premium diesel all the time - I don't know.
You can use a diesel centaur booster additive like Miller's Sport Diesel.
I'm currently using this, bought from eBay.
(http://www.series2club.co.uk/gallery/technical/images/archoil_6850.jpg)
A few mls per tankful, it goes a long way.
I also put the occasional squirts of a mineral 2-stroke oil in - using an old Redex UCL squirter that garages used to have.
Regarding the price of fuel:
The prices seem to change every day.
Nationally Asda have said they will be the cheapest when up against local competition.
This is confused by Sainsbury's and Tescos occasionally giving fuel discount vouchers away when you open over a certain amount.
You need your wits about you.
To that end I subscribe and use this online app Petrol Prices.com (https://www.petrolprices.com) put it on your phone.
Very useful for when you are away from home.
:petrol_pump
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The E10 scam is operating here now. I went to refuel at the Texaco station I use because it's cheaper than the nearer to home Shell station and all the petrol pumps were for E10. No super unleaded sold there. So it was back to the Shell station where I refuelled with V Power at the eye watering price of £1.499 per litre!!!!!! 99 octane petrol in an engine designed to run on 2 star. What a con.
I fail to see any "Con" here. Its your choice to put premium fuel in your vehicle. FBHVC recommend some very simple measures such as regular checks of fuel lines, which people should be doing anyway I'd have thought ? They suggest carburettor floats may discolour over time - whoopee do. Performance issues ? They suggest a slight tweek towards a richer mixture and so on. As Alan suggests, its possible to add further chemistry, although I recall the laughter from my local garage proprietor, formerly engaged in engine testing for Rover, on seeing me with a bottle of "lead replacement" additive - which he described as "an utter waste of time, unless you plan on doing motorway speeds for tens of thousands of miles a year". Keep Calm and carry on driving...
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Urm yes ... the lead replacement additives were of dubious and questionable value :shakeinghead
There's no evidence I know of that they did any good (well not for Land Rover engines) nor did they do any harm.
Octane and cetane additives are a different thing altogether.
Get your engine running nicely; static timing, valve and plug gaps set and then see if the premium fuels give you any benefit - then decide what to use.
Your engine will come to no harm if you use bog standard supermarket fuel.
Use new fuel lines and seals that are sold as compatible with E10 fuels.
:RHD
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Was out today and was using premium petrol for the last few weeks, found that the Landie could go up a long hill in fourth whereas previously I had to change down to keep the speed up to 40.... So the economy will be better too when not climbing hills. It runs well on good quality BP fuel , but not the supermarket cxxp that ASDA sell which has less additives.
Just saying. :-X
Dave
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You could try the ASDA fuel with an octane booster and see if performance matches that when using premium BP fuel.
If it does you can do sums to see which is best value.
:petrol_pump
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Thanks Alan, might try that but I still wouldn't use ASDA fuel, had a couple of bad fuel issues previously. The BP garage is nowwhere near ASDA but has normal petrol at 1.31-ltr which is only 1p more than ASDA.
Dave.
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Does anyone have a professional view as to whether we should switch to super unleaded after the introduction of E10 fuel, or whether an additive is necessary, and if so what additive. I have seen any amount of opinions but would appreciate a definitive response if there is a fuel guru out there.
Thank you
Mike :-\
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I've been trying to compare prices for Millers VSPe additive, which claims to prevent alcohol erosion (apart from giving an octane boost plus protection against valve seat erosion).
The choice seems to be between 250ml in an ordinary bottle, which is described as a one-shot additive treating 40l of fuel - ie you tip it in every fuel fill-up, at £14.49, which is pretty pricey.
Or, a special 500ml bottle that protects 10 tankfulls, at £28.99. At £2.90 a shot that on the other hand seems very cheap.
What's going on here? - it's hardly "bulk buying" to buy only twice the quantity, yet get something at a tenth the price.
The previous VSP additive, introduced at the time of the unleaded scare a few years ago, worked well in my experience. The Triumph I ran it in pinked on ordinary unleaded, yet was fine with the additive, and the valve seat erosion risk with unhardened seats appeared avoided.
So this stuff seems unlikely to be just snake oil, it's just the odd pricing that puzzles me.
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A couple of points.
Study of the contents list might prove informative; this might disclose the multishot version has a stronger concentration of one constituent. Alternatively the single shot version might show a dilutant, like 'non-aromatic kerosene'.
The other point is that people will pay extra for a simple to use single shot product. To them, removing the hassle of calculating how much to use at each tank fill is worth paying money for.
Several decades ago I was using a Cetane additive for use in a non Land Rover diesel engine.
As Mother was the main driver I distilled the additive into two small bottles, each doing half a tank.
If she was topping up the tank in advance of a long trip she could use one bottle. If filling the tank from a low level she tipped both bottles in.
I was happy to provide the bottle filling service, she found the dosing procedure simple to follow.
In a parallel example, some people will prefer to use a 'ready mixed' antifreeze, others, like me, will buy anti-freeze in a concentrated format and happily premix 5 litre containers to whatever value I prefer.
Regards.
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I don't need to use any unleaded additives as the 2.5 petrol engine has an unleaded head which was factory fitted.
It's the problems with E10 on fuel lines and carburettor components that concerns me.
I do a daily check on fuel lines.
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Does anyone have a professional view as to whether we should switch to super unleaded after the introduction of E10 fuel, or whether an additive is necessary, and if so what additive. I have seen any amount of opinions but would appreciate a definitive response if there is a fuel guru out there.
Thank you
Mike :-\
Hi Mike
Sorry I am not a 'professional' (organic chemist that is!) but I posted my practical experiences of using E10 on a thread in July - you may already have read it. Anyway if it 'helps' here it is again.
Strange
I have driven all over mainland Europe and Scandinavia in my 2a over the last 10+ years, filling up with many tankfuls of E10 petrol.
So far, nothing has perished. Nothing has melted. I never noticed any difference in performance (in fact I considered the mpg to improve?). Oh, and it made no difference to how easily (or otherwise) it started!
Engine-wise - compressions are still spot on, valves clearly not burnt etc and it still pulls like a train!
So I do wonder if 'we' are getting a little carried away - especially if you are not considering doing many miles.
OK so there may be some 'chemical' issues but so far I have not seen any - anyway we have a choice. Spend more money and use non E10 fuel.
Maybe I was lucky. Maybe my rubber hoses are already of the correct spec (I don't know) and I run a Facet electric pump (for a number of reasons).
But, I agree - some more factual/practical information would be useful.
HTH
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I don't need to use any unleaded additives as the 2.5 petrol engine has an unleaded head which was factory fitted.
It's the problems with E10 on fuel lines and carburettor components that concerns me.
I do a daily check on fuel lines.
As he said^^^
I have a 2.5 petrol in a 86"
and my other 86" with the original 2.0 engine I fitted unleaded exhaust valves from the S1 club shop
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It's the problems with E10 on fuel lines and carburettor components that concerns me.
I do a daily check on fuel lines.
I'm confused. Yesterday you posted about driving to another garage in order to fill up on BPs "V-power" premium fuel ? Don't you have faith in that either ?
Personally I think there is a lot of over-blown hype going on here. These engines are not highly tuned formula one racing machines, they were built to be able to run on absolute grot, sold in cans by the roadside in the depths of the Empire. If I had a vintage Ferrari I might take some of this a bit more seriously...
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The fact fuel is marked as E5 or E10 does not actually help, as that indicates the maximum ethanol allowed in the mix. Both could have very little ethanal ,or the maximum allowed . If asked I am sure the staff at a filling station would not know the actual amount in any delivery. In this situation I prefer to err on the safe side given the option and assume they are all worst case .
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The Texaco garage where I went first sold only premium petrol and all the pumps had E10 stickers so I went to the Shell garage where the V Power pump has an E5 sticker so I used that.
It's what E10 fuel does, or can do, to fuel lines, carburettors and fuel pumps that concerns me so until there's irrefutable evidence as what it does or doesn't do, I'll stick to super unleaded.
The lift pump on my Land Rover is a genuine Land Rover part Tdi one so I wonder what E10 would do to it as it's designed for diesel engines.
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That's my view on it too until there's irrefutable evidence of what E10 fuel does or doesn't do to fuel lines, carburettors and fuel pumps.
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I plan to ask Allmakes / Britpart for confirmation of E10 compatibility of the standard mechanical lift pump, but given its price, even if it only lasts a year, its probably cheaper than the additional cost of "super" fuel. I currently have a test of an Allmakes Zenith overhaul kit and a Bearmach Solex overhaul kit with all the rubber components soaking in E10 petrol. They have been sitting like this for the last three months with only the occasional agitation. So far, I haven't seen any deterioration. Admittedly its not an ideal test as the diaphragms are not being worked, but should be a good indicator.
In my view, from what I've seen so far, this is probably an unfounded concern. Clearly its something we need to watch out for and in particular with failure of the joiner hose to carburettors (especially those ones with filters in line over the hot exhaust). If a lift pump diaphragm fails, there is a risk of petrol getting into the engine oil. A daily level check will show that anyway.
I think for the classic car market, the biggest issue with modern fuels is how they behave when not being used. If the average mileage of a classic car in the UK is apparently 1500 miles, then an awful lot of vehicles are sitting about with deteriorating fuel in their systems. A fuel stabiliser will help of course, but people need to be aware that ethanol absorbs water. This could encourage more unwanted water collecting in unhelpful areas of fuel systems potentially causing corrosion and other damage. The point being that if these vehicles are not being used and are sitting in storage, they must either have the fuel system completely drained or run regularly with fresh fuel. Those of us regularly using our vehicle probably don't need to be concerned.
I'd be more worried about running an elderly fuel injection system such as an EFi Classic Range Rover. There are a lot of small hoses, link pipes, vacuum hoses, regulators, pumps, injectors etc. to fail. I remember that LR used to do a special fuel pump for ethanol enriched markets (Brazil) in the 1980s and 1990s to avoid this problem. The pumps were very expensive with increased stainless steel components to stop internal corrosion.
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BP unleaded in my area is 1.33 ( rounded up)
Times this by 4.54= 1 gallon x 10 gallon tank = £60.38
Tesco 99 Ron in my area is 1.40 ( Rounded up)
Times this by 4.54 =1 gallon x 10 gallon tank = £63.56
£63.56 - £60.38 = £3.18 difference, I'll stick to the super unleaded for 28 pence difference
I wasn't looking at the price of the actual fuel, but at the odd prices of the additive in a smalll bottle.
The "10 tank fulls" stuff is typically twice the price of the one-shot "tip the whole bottle in" but it treats 10 tank fulls not just one.
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I was driving my 1994 Vw t4 petrol yesterday and noticed it pinking in 5th when accelerating. Not done before.
Had to actually,pin down.
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Perhaps not, but when you mentioned your triumph and using an additive so it didn't pink with ordinary unleaded my point was that it's rarely cost effective to use and additive and may as well go straight for super unleaded if available in your area.
I was thinking ahead to the day when super is no longer available and all petrol is E10.
All these half-way products are phased out pretty quickly despite promises - 5-star, 4-star. I daresay before long diesel will only be available at the commercial part of the service station, like in the old days.
Then we'll be back to buying petrol in cans from chemists. :)
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I was thinking ahead to the day when super is no longer available and all petrol is E10.
All these half-way products are phased out pretty quickly despite promises - 5-star, 4-star. I daresay before long diesel will only be available at the commercial part of the service station, like in the old days.
Then we'll be back to buying petrol in cans from chemists. :)
I feel the goverment wants to drive older cars and older drivers off the roads and into public transport that in many areas no longer exists >:D
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Then we'll be back to buying petrol in cans from chemists. :)
Perhaps not chemists but almost certainly the next 20 years will see a major change in fuel types and distribution. An example might be the change-over from horse-power to the infernal combustion engine in the early part of the last century. Before WW1, almost 100% of road transport was powered by hay-burning horses, cars an expensive luxury & hobby for the rich. ( My maternal grandfather was the chauffeur...). By the 1920s the horse was being quickly replaced by petrol powered lorries and buses, electric trams in city centres. Now its a Horse & Cart that is the expensive luxury hobby.... We too can expect to become "hobbyists", a rarity that people go - "Oooh, look at that ! I remember Grandad had one of them..." We are already at the stage where the average "classic" does less than 1500 miles a year. You probably will buy your fuel 20lt at a time, delivered by an electric tax-dodging Amazon van...
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The E5 Esso Supreme 99 in Bedford is 99 RON and 0% ethanol.
I might put some in the Land Rover before the winter lay up to reduce the risk of water damage associated with E10.
But for now the local Jet filling station's E10 suits the Land Rover just fine.
Not all Esso Supreme is 0% ethanol. The Esso website explains that it can't guarantee 0% ethanol in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, north of England and Scotland (I think that's correct).
-
According to an official Government site all petrol engine Land Rovers from 1996 onwards are E10 compatible.
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According to an official Government site all petrol engine Land Rovers from 1996 onwards are E10 compatible.
Thats the problem for 2 of my engines, 2.0 & 2.5 petrol engines :shakeinghead
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I haven’t used my Petrol strummer for at least six months and it wouldn’t start a couple of days ago. I checked the plug and it was dry so primed the fuel a bit more and one of the pipes came away from the fuel tank grommet. On checking I found both pipes were perished in fact there were just shreds of pipe left in the fuel tank. Normally I leave the tank empty but on this occasion it was left half full. The pictures show what the pipes should be like and what was filtered from the fuel. Is this E10 striking again?
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Do you use a fuel additive ???
I use Briggs & Stratton Fuel Fit (http://www.series2club.co.uk/gallery/technical/pages/fuel_additives.htm) others are available, as seen on the right (I got it off eBay).
(http://www.series2club.co.uk/gallery/technical/images/fuel_additives.jpg)
The fuel in my can for the mower is now a year old and the mower (my mower is quite frugal on petrol) has started 1st time this season :first
Taken from the Briggs & Stratton website:-
Fuel Fit®
Prevents fuel problems. Period.
Briggs & Stratton’s Fuel Fit® keeps fuel fresh and protects engines better than ever before. Fuel Fit® not only keeps the carburettor clean for easy starting but now also protects against the corrosive effects of ethanol and maintains fuel stability for up to 3 years.
:lawnmower
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Do you use a fuel additive ???
I use Briggs & Stratton Fuel Fit (http://www.series2club.co.uk/gallery/technical/pages/fuel_additives.htm)
The fuel in my can for the mower is now a year old and the mower (my mower is quite frugal on petrol) has started 1st time this season :first
Taken from the Briggs & Stratton website:-
:lawnmower
I just rebuilt the Briggs and Stratton 23hp V-twin engine on my mower this past week; used it for the first time yesterday.
-
Stihl the manufacturer of my strimmers, hedge cutters, chainsaw and blower/shredder vac recommend draining the fuel tank and running the engine until it stops for long term storage. This I do with the strimmers and hedge cutters after the last autumn cut but not with the others as they're all year round.
No problems starting the strimmers or hedge cutters.
The premixed branded fuel is incredibly expensive. It's cheaper to use super unleaded. Both my Hayter mowers have Briggs and Stratton engines and no trouble starting. I don't drain the fuel from them.
Stihl do a special fuel too but that's expensive.
-
First time in about 15 years that I have left fuel in it but I won’t do it again.
Thanks Mr.W I will certainly try that additive in future
-
Is this E10 striking again?
Unlikely as you come from Devon, The likely hood is that it is just down to poor quality rubber used to day. I've a 4 stroke water pump and even after being drained and stored empty over the winter that has just had to have new fuel lines after they just fell to bits.
Unless you are getting supermarket with a tankerload from up the line, the two Plymouth Fuel terminals are still running an E5 blend and even they are unsure as to when next week when it will switch to up to 10% bio Ethanol. ???
Talking to my fuel supplier it isn't as smooth a transition as we might believe. :thud
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Is there a up to date web site showing where the E5 pumps are, it seems in some areas you can only get E10 (as marked on the pumps) ???
I've just returned from the S1 club Talyllyn event and the hearest E5 pump was 1/2 hour away!
-
Is there a up to date web site showing where the E5 pumps are, it seems in some areas you can only get E10 (as marked on the pumps) ???
I've just returned from the S1 club Talyllyn event and the hearest E5 pump was 1/2 hour away!
The esso garage in Pwllheli has it. (Nefyn Road) also Gwalia Shell Caeathro.
Esso are still saying there is no ethanol in the super in certain parts of UK, but I see this is now not the case in North Wales. My garden equipment wont be happy :shakeinghead >:D
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Just read this :coffee
Asda won't sell any E5 petrol at any of its 320 forecourts in the UK. Tesco will offer E5 petrol at around 90% of its 600 garages, meaning there will be approximately 60 sites that do not offer the fuel. Sainsbury's also said that most of its more than 300 sites will continue to sell E5.
but for how long ???
-
on the Goverment website-
Land Rover
E10 petrol is cleared for use in all Land Rover vehicles with petrol engines starting from model year 1996.Older vehicles should continue to use E5
:tiphat
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Is there a up to date web site showing where the E5 pumps are, it seems in some areas you can only get E10?
Which takes us back to my original post on August 14th. I was noticing then, a shortage of Premium Fuel at several of my usual fill-up spots.
I'm still not clear in my mind whether this is a foretaste of what happened to leaded petrol, or due to shortage of Tanker drivers, or due to a shortage of Premium Fuel due to refinery "pinging" issues, or Brexit, or a combination of the lot.
As I don't do too many miles, I haven't had to fill up again yet, so I'll see where we are when I do.......
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Is there a up to date web site showing where the E5 pumps are, it seems in some areas you can only get E10 (as marked on the pumps) ???
I've just returned from the S1 club Talyllyn event and then nearest E5 pump was 1/2 hour away!
just checked 22 miles from the B&B to a E5 pump 22 miles a 44 mile round trip:thud
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^^^^My nearest pump of any description is 8 miles, and £1.41 a litre currently. We work on filling up whenever we are in Stirling if possible.
-
Coming to all petrol stations soon ...
Check here DVLA E10 vehicle checker (https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-e10-petrol)
PS
I'm really glad my vehicles run on diesel :RHD
-
Having 2 classic cars, a Triumph TR4a and a Series 2a Land Rover and after reading various articles in the press written by so called authoritative organisations namely the RAC and AA, which stated more or less that you were going to destroy your vehicles if you used E10 fuel, I wanted to find out as much information as possible about E10 fuel and classic cars.
At first, in the popular motoring press, I found mostly regurgitated information from the motoring organisations giving the same dire warnings. Then I found a book called "Classic Engines, Modern Fuel" By Paul Ireland. He carried out extensive research at Manchester University on classic car engines running on modern fuel including E10. I won't go into too much detail but suffice to say he provides solutions to many engine problems classic car owners have. Briefly, what he does say is that there is no problem with using E10 fuel. Your carb may need slight adjustment and over time it may dissolves the plasticisers in rubber and plastic components but this is easily solved by replacing them with ethanol tolerant parts. The greatest threat of using E10 petrol is caused by water getting into the fuel system either by absorption from the air or ingress through leaky filler caps. Ethanol makes the water significantly more corrosive this in turn attacks the metal components of the fuel system. With care precautions can be taken to reduce this risk.
I do use super unleaded in my TR but that is because it has a high compression engine and was originally designed to run on 5 star. My Land Rover will continue to run on 95RON unleaded now with 10% ethanol. If I lay it up over winter I will leave only a small amount of petrol in the tank and fill it with fresh in the spring.
I am not an expert but I was annoyed by all the 'Fake News' I was reading. Hopefully this will help clear up the confusion.
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I'm really glad my vehicles run on diesel :RHD
....which is B7 anyway :-)
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I read that book April last year.
I have set up my 2.25 petrol using many of his suggestions and currently its running on the E5 just fine . I don`t have any particular concerns about E10. Don`t buy you fuel hose based on price , make sure it complies with SAE J30 R9 spec.
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I have just been running my Vw transporter camper on e10. I am reasonably sure the engine was not as nippy and started to pink in 5th on a slight incline.
Managed to get some posh e5 petrol this weekend and pinking stopped and going like a rocket.
Not so happy with the 20p a litre uplift!
I did wonder with that engine if a tweak to the timing may fix it?
-
Apart from rubber, Ethanol also eats carb floats and fibreglass fuel tanks.
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Have you tried one of the several octane boosters ???
From Halfords et al.
:petrol_pump
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When I found some e5 near bridge water, the e10 pumps had e10 marker discs on the handle and e5 on pump body stickers . Not helpful.
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You can, of course, easily just remove the ethanol. Add water, wait a bit, drain the water+ethanol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9mLbuUSt-0
( video suggested by Manxcat).
I understand you can drink ethanol...
:cheers
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Have you tried one of the several octane boosters ???
From Halfords et al.
:petrol_pump
Not yet, as I have been using Esso super in the garden equipment. It goes against the grain to pay for something you need to add to "get rid" of another something that you didnt want in the first place. >:D
I realise you can use water to remove the ethanol, but that also removes all the other "octane boosting" additives, so you would then need to buy a octane booster. :stars
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Some sums are needed ... :stars
If you remove all the E10 from a litre of petrol you're left with 900 mls of petrol.
That means for every 10 litres of E10 fuel you buy you are only going to have 9 litres of petrol.
Or put another way, you are paying 10% extra on every litre of E10 you put in the tank.
It must be cheaper to add an additive to the E10, have the full 10 litres of fuel in the tank and with an octane booster you will get a mile or 2 more per gallon ???
:RHD
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Some sums are needed ... :stars
If you remove all the E10 from a litre of petrol you're left with 900 mls of petrol.
That means for every 10 litres of E10 fuel you buy you are only going to have 9 litres of petrol.
Or put another way, you are paying 10% extra on every litre of E10 you put in the tank.
It must be cheaper to add an additive to the E10, have the full 10 litres of fuel in the tank and with an octane booster you will get a mile or 2 more per gallon ???
:RHD
But does the additive remove the ethenol, otherwise whats the point :stars
Whilst the you tube video was very clear I'm concerned that storage and processing of the E10 poses a fire risk at home bearing in mind that over last and next weekend I would need about 16 gallons of E10 free fuel :agh
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But does the additive remove the ethenol, otherwise whats the point :stars
Whilst the you tube video was very clear I'm concerned that storage and processing of the E10 poses a fire risk at home bearing in mind that over last and next weekend I would need about 16 gallons of E10 free fuel :agh
No additives actually remove the ethanol (despite what some companies may claim). They just neutralise some of its damaging properties. How well do particular additives do this? I'm sure there are test results somewhere. FBHVC ??
It is also a fact that you get less MPG from E10 than E5. In what way is that environmentally friendly ???
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E10 fuel in no way is "environmentally" friendly.
It's all a sick con and don't let anyone tell you otherwise, as they say:- follow the money.
For starters, think where and how the ethanol comes from.
:petrol_pump
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Just had an email from the RAC about this.
:RAC
HERE (https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/air-quality/september-switch-to-e10-fuel-fast-approaching/?cid=eml-AC058_CHUB_MEMBERS_RENEWAL_WINDOW-None_20210831_105158&utm_medium=email&utm_source=AC058_CHUB_MEMBERS_RENEWAL_WINDOW&utm_campaign=None_20210831_105158&omhide=true&contactURN=41762494&hasBreakdown=true)
Paul
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Have you tried one of the several octane boosters ???
From Halfords et al.
:petrol_pump
Summary:
Change and make sure your fuel lines, seals etc. are E10 compliant.
This in all cases will be a change of the base material to one that is impervious to the effects of ethyl alcohol.
Run your engine, a good tune-up would be in order.
And whilst the fuel additives I've been talking about won't remove the ethanol as such they go a long way to "preserving" the fuel and preventing the volatile components evaporating, leading to "stale" fuel.
I don't see the problem for Series owners - check your rubbers.
Plenty of owners are running on E5 and E10 fuels.
Why not try a shot of an octane/fuel preservative and see how it goes ???
You have nothing to lose, except 5 or 6 £s.
If it doesn't work for you, go to Plan B.
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It strikes me there is some utter nonsense in that RAC article - and all the Govt Hoo-ha too - particularly the bits about reducing CO2 emissions. I doubt that the change reduces the amount of CO2 produced per litre used at all - what it does do is reduce the amount of "fossil fuel" used, so the CO2 is coming from "short cycle" plant based sources rather than "incredibly long cycle" oil.
It still puts CO2 into the air, probably in exactly the same amount, is the combustion chemistry any different ? The questions then are about the whatever plant based material is being used to make the ethanol and what it would be used for otherwise. Growing corn to make fuel rather than food ? What would be the decomposition product of the plant based material - how much CO2 would it have produced if left to rot, been fed to people/animals etc. Fermenting otherwise "waste" product that would rot anyway is perhaps an excuse - but planting crops just to make fuel helps not one jot.
We still need to use less fuel - of any sort - in order to actually reduce CO2 emissions ? The real "renewables" are electric power from wind and wave, solar etc. Hydrogen created using renewables too perhaps. Moving away from transport then perhaps lots more timber used in construction rather than mass concrete, would lock up C02 for centuries rather than creating lots to make cement...
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Apart from rubber, Ethanol also eats carb floats and fibreglass fuel tanks.
You can buy carb floats from Burlen that are not affected by Ethanol.
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Have you tried one of the several octane boosters ???
From Halfords et al.
A few questions;
1) Surely what's needed is something to counteract the harmful effects of ethanol. What's that got to do with boosting octane?
2) Why does E10 disolve pipes and plastic petrol tanks but E5, which still contains ethanol, does not?
Is it just that components merely dissolve more slowly in E5 (but still faster than old 4*) ?
It seems odd that there should be a critical level of ethanol , somewhere in between E5 and E10.
Where does the ethanol come from? Again, why is some ethanol OK but some bad?
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A few questions;
1) Surely what's needed is something to counteract the harmful effects of ethanol. What's that got to do with boosting octane?
2) Why does E10 disolve pipes and plastic petrol tanks but E5, which still contains ethanol, does not?
Is it just that components merely dissolve more slowly in E5 (but still faster than old 4*) ?
It seems odd that there should be a critical level of ethanol , somewhere in between E5 and E10.
Where does the ethanol come from? Again, why is some ethanol OK but some bad?
Octane boosters are needed if you remove the ethanol using the "water" method as stated ^^^ as that also strips them at the same time.
You are correct E5 is not as bad as E10, but it is still disastrous on some small engines (garden machinery, outboards etc)
Ethanol is obtained from growing crops, sometimes at the expense of using them (or the land) for food, so as far as I am concerned they are all bad. If it wasn't for gov subsidies (here and elsewhere) nobody would probably produce it.
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I had a quick scout about for some figures, many of the references are almost 10 years old, but I did find this UK Govt report which says 66% of "renewable" fuel comes from waste - but the majority of that is bio-diesel made from used cooking oil. Ethanol made in the UK is primarily from wheat, the largest import source is Peruvian sugar cane (!). Our largest supplier (in 2019) was actually China. An interesting read I think ?
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/823788/Renewable_Fuel_Statistics_2019_First_Provisional_Report.pdf
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I had a quick scout about for some figures, many of the references are almost 10 years old, but I did find this UK Govt report which says 66% of "renewable" fuel comes from waste - but the majority of that is bio-diesel made from used cooking oil. Ethanol made in the UK is primarily from wheat, the largest import source is Peruvian sugar cane (!). Our largest supplier (in 2019) was actually China. An interesting read I think ?
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/823788/Renewable_Fuel_Statistics_2019_First_Provisional_Report.pdf
Interesting. I also read that ethanol is also made by "the hydration of ethene". Ethene is a by product from petrol production, and apparently you use phosphoric acid to convert it into ethanol :agh
Sounds really "green" doesn't it. We are all being taken for a tata (Not Tata!).
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Ethanol made in the UK is primarily from wheat, the largest import source is Peruvian sugar cane (!). Our largest supplier (in 2019) was actually China.
Rather like our local power station burning wood chip - from Canada.
Closed now, so someone else’s problem.
-
As an aside...
Does anyone know what Shell's ICA stands for ???
:forecourt
-
Ignition Control Additive.
-
Ignition Control Additive.
Is that good ???
and is it E5 ???
:stars
-
Shell with ICA goes back to the days when petrol was full fat petrol.
So it's not E5, a concept yet to be invented.
The advert below is from 1955 and it reminded me of the picture in the August PoM competition and the recent topic on child seats.
Other petrol companies had their own "fuel additions" and on every garage forecourt was a Redex dispenser - 1d per shot - with UCL (upper cylinder lubricant).
(I knew what UCL was but had forgotten what ICA was, hence the posting.)
Happy days ....
:forecourt
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Reminds me of our first baby in a carrycot behind the seats of our Triumph Spitfire.
Sorry OT
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You can remove the ethanol easily at home! do it for my 2 strokes and going to do it for the landy too now...............
Look it up on Youtube, water, food coloring and a spare can is all you need. :cheers
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Hmmmm
And here is once such Youtube video:-
Removing the E from E10 petrol (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VwxRVATbOQ)
I wonder how folks are going to get on with handling 40 litres of E10 and if you do a high mileage ???
You are going to be doing this every 200 miles.
:shakeinghead
Great for people like me who only use about 10 litres of petrol a year for the mower - maybe.
Where's all the waste going - to the tip, I think not, down the drain I think.
I think if you cost all this up, and factor in your time - wouldn't it just be easier and cheaper to buy the premium grade petrol ???
:fire
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Hmmmm
I think if you cost all this up, and factor in your time - wouldn't it just be easier and cheaper to buy the premium grade petrol ???
:fire
As said
BUT
How long will any sort of E5 petrol be on the market :shakeinghead
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Agreed Alan especially with low mileages if you can get it . Devon and Cornwall with Esso are already looking dodgy.
I am hoping demand in our area with so many old cars will change the retailers plan if e10 sales fall.
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At nearly £7.00 (£6.91 actually) per gallon for Premium in my nearest garage - which is 5 miles away - I suspect the profit margin for petrol producers will hopefully ensure continued production……
Though I don’t know the difference in profit margin between E5 and E10.
-
Super has always been more expensive. Even at the supplier end I have been quoted ~7p a litre more expensive than regular grades.
-
You could always convert to LPG :stars
... or fit a diesel engine :tiphat
PS
I foresee a shortage of food colouring coming soon.
:RHD
-
I foresee a shortage of food colouring coming soon.
:RHD
And these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353571419297?hash=item52527fb4a1:g:UqkAAOSwBkBcHIQo (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353571419297?hash=item52527fb4a1:g:UqkAAOSwBkBcHIQo)
And these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/383385725292?hash=item594391e96c:g:rRwAAOSwc7teKbGc (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/383385725292?hash=item594391e96c:g:rRwAAOSwc7teKbGc)
Cue an increase in garage fires and people with no eyebrows. :log fire (someone must have a better fire smiley)
-
... quite :blood_bus
-
And these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353571419297?hash=item52527fb4a1:g:UqkAAOSwBkBcHIQo (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353571419297?hash=item52527fb4a1:g:UqkAAOSwBkBcHIQo)
And these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/383385725292?hash=item594391e96c:g:rRwAAOSwc7teKbGc (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/383385725292?hash=item594391e96c:g:rRwAAOSwc7teKbGc)
Cue an increase in garage fires and people with no eyebrows. :log fire (someone must have a better fire smiley)
Not sure 10 gallons of petrol going up would leave you with just singed eyebrows.
I think Charles Darwin had a theory that could be applied here.
-
You could always ...
... or fit a diesel engine :tiphat
:RHD
UK Diesel is already up to 7% Bio ....
:tiphat
-
Yes, but it's a different "bio" :scientist
-
UK Diesel is already up to 7% Bio ....
:tiphat
does this have a impact on older, 200tdi, rubber parts ???
-
No
-
Thinking about my 6 year old mower sent them the serial number and asked (if OT sorry) -
Dear Sir/Madam,
Thank you for contacting us at STIHL Customer Service. This message is in response to your request for information on the compatibility of STIHL engines with the new fuel composition in the UK.
Naturally, we understand the uncertainties and concerns that this change raises in our customers. E10 petrol will contain up to 10% renewable ethanol. This is intended to help reduce CO2 emissions, but we know that some of you may have concerns about how this will affect your petrol tools. We recommend in all of our owners’ manuals that you should only use high-quality brand-name petrol with a minimum octane rating of 90, but we can reassure you that petrol with an ethanol content of 10% or less, like the new E10 petrol will not cause a problem with your STIHL petrol tool.
However, petrol with an ethanol content of more than 10% can cause running problems in engines with a manually adjustable carburettor, so should not be used in such engines.
In some tools, it may also be necessary to readjust the carburettor to compensate for the changed composition of the fuel. We recommend that you visit a STIHL Approved Dealer for this.
However, if you still want to use standard petrol, we are happy to reassure you that the new E10 petrol is fine to use in your STIHL petrol tools.
Finally, we include a couple of links with relevant information in this regard:
https://www.stihlusa.com/information/articles/gasoline-guidelines-outdoor-power-equipment/
https://www.stihl.com/e10-gasohol-ethanolgasoline-fuel-mixture.aspx
We hope that the information provided has been useful to you. For any other questions, do not hesitate to contact us again.
Kind regards,
STIHL GB
Andreas Stihl Limited
Phone: +44 (0)1276 20202
www.stihl.co.uk
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No
....but the more "Bio" diesel in the mix, the more your vehicle will smell like a chip-shop :-)
-
....but the more "Bio" diesel in the mix, the more your vehicle will smell like a chip-shop :-)
I might like that :essen
-
Thinking about my 6 year old mower sent them the serial number and asked (if OT sorry) -
Well I have a Stihl brushcutter, less than 5 years old, and E5 turned the rubber fuel pickup tube into chewing gum and destroyed the carb. After I let the pickup pipe dry out, it went hard and brittle. The Stihl agent (Four Crosses) was unable to repair the carb, and put it down to the fuel ??? New carb and pickup pipe and run it on Esso Super (no ethanol) since and no further probs, but I empty it of fuel after finishing using it. I think a lot of contract gardeners would disagree with Stihl's response. Maybe I should have claimed off them for the repair!
https://www.mowers-online.co.uk/how-the-new-e10-petrol-will-affect-lawnmowers-and-garden-machinery (https://www.mowers-online.co.uk/how-the-new-e10-petrol-will-affect-lawnmowers-and-garden-machinery)
Problem is the Esso Super stuff in our area now has ethanol :shakeinghead
-
There's some confusion here regarding "Bio Diesel".
People are using the term "Bio Diesel" for 2 different fuels.
1) The more common usage if for using used chip shop oil.
Some people process this at home, others just bung it straight in. Some mix it 50:50 with pump diesel.
If you collect waste chip oil you area s likely as not to get a waste carriers license from your local council.
Another process is to methylate the veggie oil - this makes it for all intents and purposes the same as dino diesel.
2) The second fuel called "Bio Diesel" is what the oil refineries use and blend in with dino diesel.
This is labelled B7 which means it may contain up to 7% of FAMEs - fatty acid methyl esters produced by methylating virgin veggie oil.
Be aware - there is B10 around and B20 is coming round the corner.
For this the refineries use veggie oil harvested from the fields - maize, corn oil. The oil can be converted to ethanol - see the previous posts ^^^ or methylated.
Either way you are taking away food stock :shakeinghead
These bio diesel fuels are good BUT they have low sulphur content and that's bad for engine lubricity. So they add an additive package at the refinery to the diesel.
You can buy your own additives which also improve the cetane rating - as discussed above ^^^
There is no ethanol in bio diesel and diesel users will not experience the troubles the older petrol vehicles have.
Using premium pump diesel is not really needed - but in running the odd tank through you will notice the extra oomph due to the increase in cetane rating. Again, you have to balance the cost of premium fuel against the extra mpg gained.
:-\
Please note: It's not a good idea to run the CAV DPA fuel pumps on waste or virgin veggie oil :shakeinghead
Even if you blend it with pump diesel. The CAV pumps can't take it and will soon seize up, they are metered for a different viscosity of fuel :'(
The Bosch injector pumps love the stuff !
Of course there's always the one exception to the rule, who will claim they've been running on waste oil for years with no problems :thud
:forecourt
-
Of course in an emergency, such as being pursued by Customs & Excise in your ancient petrol lorry laden with contraband whisky, a higher alcohol content can work well enough. :)
(Whisky Galore, by Compton Mackenzie)
-
According to the UK Govt most (96%) of the "Bio" bit in "pump" diesel is actually processed waste cooking oil rather than "new", so for that at least, its not true to say its taking away from food production ?
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/renewable-fuel-statistics-2021-first-provisional-report/renewable-fuel-statistics-2021-first-provisional-report
-
That's as maybe - I was thinking on a more global scale where in the states giant ethanol plants have been build at the expenses of using corn as a base stock for flour, dextrose sugars and cooking oil.
:RHD
-
According to the UK Govt most (96%) of the "Bio" bit in "pump" diesel is actually processed waste cooking oil rather than "new", so for that at least, its not true to say its taking away from food production ?
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/renewable-fuel-statistics-2021-first-provisional-report/renewable-fuel-statistics-2021-first-provisional-report
True for diesel, however only 9% of bioethanol ( for petrol )comes from waste products.
Every time you switch on the TV you are bombarded by fundraising adverts for starving people ???. Still, I am sure what little food they are getting is probably being delivered in shiny new eco friendly vehicles.
(sorry, my mother once said I was a "cynical ba*****" at the age of seven).
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Sorry to continue a bit more OT but just spotted this on Stihl's blog on E10
Of course, if you are concerned about the use of ethanol in your machines, then you can always consider our premium, patented fuel formula, MotoMix. STIHL MotoMix is completely free from ethanol and has virtually no olefins or aromatic compounds. Emission-wise, this makes it a cleaner, more environmentally-friendly choice than regular fuels, plus it lasts longer so you can store it for up to 5 years, which is handy as MotoMix is available in 200 litre drums!
So even though they say E10 will be fine in their 2 stroke engines, they are selling stuff with no ethanol in it, which apparently is also even more environmentally friendly (than what??)
£20 to £30 for 5 litres :agh
We are being treated like mugs.
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I'll stick to super unleaded as the basis for 2 stroke mixture. It saves a lot of faffing about.
Stihl 4 stroke engines use 2 stroke mixture. I've got a strimmer and long reach hedge cutter with those engines.
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Stihl 4 stroke engines use 2 stroke mixture.
why is this a good idea :stars
does this mean Land Rover petrol engines sould be run on a 2 stoke mix, or is it the same as putting extra Redex in :stars
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In the old days to make "2-stroke" petrol you added about 1 to 20 parts petrol.
Which is about ½ pint of oil to 1 gallon of petrol.
You soon know if you don't have enough oil in as the engine will nip up, soon to be followed by seizing up :'(
Some machines had a little measure built into the underside of the petrol cap, into which you poured your oil in and hence into the tank.
As times moved on some machinery got their own metering pump.
Just makes the engine a bit more complicated.
You have a petrol tank and an oil tank - the metering pump decides how much oil to inject.
A lot of 2-stroke bikes have this.
The Redex 1-shot per gallon UCL was a similar idea but not so much oil was added per gallon, more like a tea spoonful per gallon.
:Redex
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I remember Villiers 2 strokes used to be 16:1.
Stihl have different fuels for their small 2 & 4 stroke engines despite the fact they both use 2 stroke mixture.
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Second tank of E10 today, so should now have overcome any mixing with E5 after first fill up. I haven’t noticed any difference in running whatsoever. Last tank averaged 17.1 mpg which is marginally better than its normal 16 at this time of year. Although that may be attributable to the long run I did back to Manchester from Northumberland last Monday. Running very smoothly.
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why is this a good idea :stars
does this mean Land Rover petrol engines sould be run on a 2 stoke mix, or is it the same as putting extra Redex in :stars
The advantage is more torque with a 4 stroke cycle, less noise because they don't rev as high as a 2 stroke, and there's no sump as they use 2 stroke mixture, the valve gear being lubricated by drillings in the head. It works very well.
I wonder what effect E10 fuel would have on the diaphragm of the Tdi lift pump which is fitted to my petrol Series 3.
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Fuzz Townsend has just posted on Face Book about E10 and the what his initial reaction was in an Austin 7, to be honest I had a similar reaction when I first used it the other day. I've always run on the basic E5 fuel since George re-build, I'm not into the high octane fuels as I can't see the point as he goes well enough the way he is currently set-up, but goes even better now or that's how it feels now :RHD.
I am considering using an electric pump (low pressure) which if possible will be fitted into the fuel tank now that Allisport are offering tanks for Series Land Rovers - this could be a project for next year. ???
RobS
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I haven’t used my Petrol strummer for at least six months and it wouldn’t start a couple of days ago. I checked the plug and it was dry so primed the fuel a bit more and one of the pipes came away from the fuel tank grommet. On checking I found both pipes were perished in fact there were just shreds of pipe left in the fuel tank. Normally I leave the tank empty but on this occasion it was left half full. The pictures show what the pipes should be like and what was filtered from the fuel. Is this E10 striking again?
Probably not, the pipes have a lifespan of a couple of years and have for a long time, quality is not great.
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I remember Villiers 2 strokes used to be 16:1.
Stihl have different fuels for their small 2 & 4 stroke engines despite the fact they both use 2 stroke mixture.
2-strokes have gradually used a smaller proportion of oil over the years. My old Seagull outboard motor ran on 10:1, and left a chacteristic trail of blue smoke in its wake. Mowers and chainsaws etc usually required 25:1, but modern machines now often only need 40:1.
The early Saab 96 had a 2-stroke engine running on 33:1, made famous in rallying by Eric Carlson. It's the reason for the Saab tradition of having a free-wheel option by a lever under the dashboard. 2-strokes give a rather pulsating drive on over-run, but the free-wheel was continued long after the engine had been replaced by a more conventional 4-stroke.
2-strokes are more powerful of course. I've a fearsome 2-stroke groundsman's lawnmower. It makes a noise like a tank and belches smoke, but will chomp through anything.
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Sorry to continue a bit more OT but just spotted this on Stihl's blog on E10
Of course, if you are concerned about the use of ethanol in your machines, then you can always consider our premium, patented fuel formula, MotoMix. STIHL MotoMix is completely free from ethanol and has virtually no olefins or aromatic compounds. Emission-wise, this makes it a cleaner, more environmentally-friendly choice than regular fuels, plus it lasts longer so you can store it for up to 5 years, which is handy as MotoMix is available in 200 litre drums!
So even though they say E10 will be fine in their 2 stroke engines, they are selling stuff with no ethanol in it, which apparently is also even more environmentally friendly (than what??)
£20 to £30 for 5 litres :agh
We are being treated like mugs.
:stars :thud Ok I use Aspen in my outboard motors (£20 for 5litres) BUT I run on it for <10 minutes to flush the regular fuel out the carbs before packing them away until next use.
Using it as your sole fuel source is financial suicide
Neal