S2C Forum Archives
Main Section => Workshop Wisdom => 602's Musings => Topic started by: HolmeLandie on August 16, 2019, 06:17:31 PM
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I wonder if anyone can shed some light on my confusion over the registration number that is currently on my Series 2?
It has the number YVF 6nn A.
Reading Alan's very interesting 'UK Vehicle Registration Numbers Explained' thread, it appears that 'YVF' is from Norfolk (where Landie still lives), and was issued from July 1958 onwards.
According to the DVLA 'Date of first registration' is March 1959, which fits with Messrs Bottombox check of the Gayden records for my Chassis No: 1419nnnnn having rolled off the production line late November 1958. However the 'A' suffix denotes a 1963 registration, hence my confusion.
If this is not the original registration number on the vehicle, is it possible to find out what the original registration was? Could it simply have been used 'offroad' for the first few years of it's life, and not been given a number until it was required to be 'on road'?
Many thanks for your help with this.
HL.
:stars
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Vehicle could have been "off road" or possibly saw "military" service, however it is far more likely that the original number was just sold. Some years ago, when this happened, you were issued with an "A" reg . If you want, I think they will now replace it with an "age related" number.
The DVLA will release you "some" info if you fill in a V888 form. Most info is now redacted for "data protection >:D", but they should at least tell you the original number. Lots of info on this on the old forum.
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For a period of time before age related registrations went to 3 + 3 format DVLA used up spare A suffix registrations for age related.
It could have and age related number because of a numer of reasons. It may just have got it when cast from the military if it is that sort of vehicle, it may have not been registered when new (kept on a private estate). Had an original registration that either fell off the DVLA database after not being taxed for a long time and was then reregistered but the most common one would be that the original registration was sold and so it was given an age related registration.
There are also probably a whole raft of other reasons
It is very likely that this registration is not transferrable and that you are stuck with it.
Peter
(With my VRO hat on)
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I believe that YVF 6nnA is a replacement registration plate.
GLASS's Index of Registration Numbers 1929 - 1965 lists all registration numbers issued within this period. Now whilst YVF nnn is listed as being issued by Norfolk between July 1958 - August 1958, YVF 6nnA is not listed as ever being issued, or certainly not by 1965.
This means to me, that the Registration Block YVF 6nnA was not issued by 1963, and retained by Local Licensing Authority as an unissued Registration Block. These were ultimately passed to DVLA for future use.
I assume that the original registration number was retained as a cherished transfer to another vehicle. DVLA will later have issued the 'A' plate as a replacement registration number. In more recent times, DVLA have issued the 3 + 3 format registration plates.
As your vehicle was DVLA first registered by March 1959, i.e. pre-1963, it is entitled under current DVLA policy to a 3 + 3 Registration plate. There is nothing to be gained trying to prove a November 1958 manufacture date, when DVLA will already accept their own vehicle records as entitled to 3 + 3 by virtue of its first registration date.
I would advise completing a DVLA V.888 form, together with a covering letter, explaining that you believe "YVF 6nnA" is an historic vehicle and that "YVF 6nnA" is a replacement registration number and that you are seeking to identify the original registration number. Make it perfectly clear that you are aware of the restrictions imposed by current data protection legislation, and that you do not seek or expect any personal data to be provided.
If you would like a new 3 + 3 Registration Plate to be issued by DVLA, just add another paragraph requesting same. It is that easy.
I would suggest one job at a time with DVLA. Find the original registration number first. In order to reclaim the original registration number you need some proof which links your vehicle Chassis No. to the original registration plate, and this should be done via Club VRO and a V.765 form. At a later date, submit the request for a "3 + 3" plate......if required.
Good Luck with the DVLA enquiry, it does seem to depend on the individual DVLA caseworker.
Chris
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We have several club members who have A suffix replacement (or age related) registrations on vehicles first registered before 1963 who have been told by DVLA that they are not transferrable when they asked for a 3+3 replacement age related registration.
This appears to be another example of tightening up the rules or applying them to the letter.
Peter
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Thank you Worf, Chris and Peter for your replies, this is all very interesting to me.
At this stage after towing the vehicle from a barn/field with a tractor, I am simply trying to fill in as much of it's history as I can. It is after all a couple of years older than me, where has it been ...?
Looking at the patina on the registration plates, they have been on the vehicle for quite a few decades, so I suspect the registration number it has currently has been on it for the majority of it's life. I also quite like the 'A' suffix, whilst less desirable from a purely format point of view than a 3 + 3, there are after all very few 'A' platers around (or maybe not according to Peter).
I did try the V888 route some 12 - 18 months ago, and was probably too broad in my request and got caught in the GDPR preparation net, receiving the standard "We're sorry but we cannot help you" response from the DVLA. >:D Armed with the above I will try again and this time, as Chris suggests, be more specific in my request, and hopefully get a more sympathetic case worker.
First priority remains though to get an MOT for it (there are HOW many parts in the front axle ...?! :agh :agh) and this is going to keep me quite occupied for a while yet (next spring I promise!!).
Once again thank you for the responses.
:cheers
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Don't HPI and similar history checking companies give you all previous plate changes any more ?, they certainly did about two years ago when I checked a possible purchase. This was on a 1981 Porsche that had had two plate changes, one in 1985 to an Irish KAZ number and a later one in 1996 back to a proper UK number.
Simon.
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Thank you Simon, just tried InstantCarCheck.co.uk (one of the cheaper ones) which states it does do number plate change checks, however once you pay for and get the report it says 'Number Plate Changes Post 1990: 0' ... :shakeinghead
However it has additionally come back with the MOT history upto 2013, which is an interesting to read. :coffee
This gives me a little more to put on the V888 when I go back to the DVLA, and it all adds to the cars history file bit by bit.
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Quite possibly re-registered in 1963 at a local office. Our P4 was originally registered new in 1960 as 'RH 27' but was re-registered in 1964 on a B suffix (local Manchester reg - it has always been around this area) which it still wears and since it's been on the car so long I've never bothered to get it changed (if RH 27 was available however...)
Most of the A suffix age related plates I have seen seem to have been issued in the 80s (probably the first time age related plates were even issued? I think they just issued current registrations prior to that) and of those most, if not all, seem to be of the format A** ***A with A at both the start and the end.
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RH27 is currently on a 2009 BMW X5 according to VOSA.
So I doubt you would get it back!
I would be interested in finding out my Series 2's original registration, just for curiosity sake more than anything. It has worn its current plate KSV896 since 1986 so has been known as that longer than as first registered! All the V5 tells me is it was registered 1986 but previously used and declared manufactured 1960. How would I even find the original reg?
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It is very likely that this registration is not transferrable and that you are stuck with it.
I thought that "not transferrable" means that it cannot be taken off and transferred to a different vehicle, but can be replaced with anything else? For example, you could buy a 3x3 plate and put this on if you wished. If these old numbers were transferrable then what would stop people from continually flogging them and requesting a new one.
To the OP; as has been said, take it one step at a time. I submitted a V888 and found the original registration number and the history of registration number transfers. I then submitted a V765, supported by the club VRO, and was lucky that the original registration was available.
Then to contradict what I said above, the DVLA asked me if I would like to retain my original (not transferrable) registration number. This was quite unexpected. I was issued a new V5 with the original registration and a retention certificate for the previous registration.
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RH27 is currently on a 2009 BMW X5 according to VOSA.
So I doubt you would get it back!
I would be interested in finding out my Series 2's original registration, just for curiosity sake more than anything. It has worn its current plate KSV896 since 1986 so has been known as that longer than as first registered! All the V5 tells me is it was registered 1986 but previously used and declared manufactured 1960. How would I even find the original reg?
Yes first thing I did when I found out was check on the DVLA. :-X I'm not one for 'vanity' plates, but I'd quite like the idea of my scruffy diesel P4 wearing a plate whose value was far far greater than the car would ever be worth, even in A1 condition.
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I thought that "not transferrable" means that it cannot be taken off and transferred to a different vehicle, but can be replaced with anything else?
Hi,
The above is my understanding, too.
Barbara was in charge (not sure if as an EO or HEO) of Cherished Transfers. But that would have been back in the late 1980, She was re-instated as an EO ay DVLC, in 1986 (I think) after resigning from C&E (London) just prior to our son being born in the mid-1970s
Ahem! You have a 1959 Land Rover with a 1962 (?) registration? That goes against DVLAs strictly enforced policy that a vehicle must not display a registration mark indicating that the vehicle is younger than it really is. (Hinting that it is older than it's real age is acceptable).
But ... a PO might have fitted younger plates for ulterior reasons ... like he had an MOT that could be associated with a spare set of number plates that he had on the shelf. Or he might have done a chassis swap. How do all the other numbers line up with the declared date of manufacture?
I don't want to rain on your parade, but better that than the alternative.
I wonder what would happen if you buried the A-plates, and applied for a new registration based on the various numbers scattered around your "barn find". Whatever, don't rock the boat until advised by a club officer.
"A little learning" .... and all that. Maybe your registration is legit, with the A-suffix meaning nothing? However, both Barbara and myself i] think[/i] (it's been 16 years for her, and 35 years for me, since retiring) that a 1959 vehicle should not display a 1961(?) or 1962 registration. Can you get a copy of the original Application for First Registration?
Make sure that you don't open a can of worms ... and have to walk home.
602
PS ... Barbara "Kindled". Do A Google for DVLA Personal Registration Numbers, she says.
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You are right in principle John but DVLA in their wisdom have designated A suffix registrations as age related and do not reflect the actual age of the vehicle. They were only issued for a very short period.
More confusing is the number of ex. Military vehicles bearing a registration that shows the year they were cast not the year of actual manufacture.
Peter
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Thank you all for the replies, I have been having a 'Landie Maintenance Moment' >:( >:D ??? trying to get the Retaining Collar onto a front drive shaft for the last couple of days, so have missed these last replies.
I'm inclined to think that Peter may be along the right lines with the theory that for a short period Age Related plates may have been issued with the 'A' postfix.
As far as the components of the vehicle are concerned I think a fair few are original and match the year of manufacture e.g. gearbox, rear axle, windscreen, steering box. The engine is a replacement, from a 1960 RHD Rover P4 (traced via the serial number).
Many thanks.
HL.
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Not a theory. As VRO I am sure of my comment.
Peter
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Presumably as mentioned earlier, he could for instance, buy a 3-3 plate and transfer that to the vehicle if he really wanted?
The A plate surely isn't forever bonded to the exclusion of anything else ? Or is it.?
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Pork scratchings, as stated before a lot of A suffixes are age related registrations provided by DVLA and some of not all are non transferable. My understanding is that it cannot be taken off the vehicle and therefore cannot be replaced with a "personal" registration which may be a 3 + 3.
I know several club members who have had discussions with DVLA about their A suffix registrations and they have not been able to make any progress in changing them to something more suitable.
Peter
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I see..so non transferable works both ways, you can't put the re issued number on another vehicle, that much i knew..., but also you can't then put any other number on that vehicle, ie one you've acquired from a dealer in number plates etc etc..interesting, I didn't realise that.. :cheers
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You certainly ly cannot change it for a 3 +3 age related plate and I am waiting for someone to test changing to a personalised reg but I suspect from the reports of discussions with DVLA a non transferrable means tha it stays with the vehicle.
However things may change as DVLA apply their own res in different ways.
Peter
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Yes first thing I did when I found out was check on the DVLA. :-X I'm not one for 'vanity' plates, but I'd quite like the idea of my scruffy diesel P4 wearing a plate whose value was far far greater than the car would ever be worth, even in A1 condition.
I’ve got one just like that. I see people looking at my scruffy Land Rover thinking why doesn’t he sell that plate and get a decent car!
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I had a BSA most of my life. When I was a feckless youth I sold the original reg to raise some funds, that was: JJJ 590. The new number issued was: ALA 118A. Some years later the DVLA allowed these A reg numbers to be changed to an age related number, and the bike was issued with: YSJ 193. Sadly now sold, but with the money raised I bought my series 2. :cheers
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What a great bike and chair outfit !..... I remember when you could drive those on L plates !
It was the way round having a big bike, ie over 250cc with only a provisional licence.. ;)
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As you said, it was some years ago.
Many things tha DVLA used to allow in the past they don't allow now.
Peter
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Indeed, I'm thinking of back in the 70s when I had bikes.. :-X
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DVLA were much easier to deal with en, they had local offices and people you could talk to.
Peter
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I remember when you could drive those on L plates
Hi PS,
My memory suggests that law didn't actually say that you couldn't ride them on L-plates carrying unqualified passengers.
If it didn't say you couldn't ... logic implied that you could.
According to the insurers, "chairs" had the best safety record.
Mike Worthington Williams' first motor vehicle was a V-twin motor cycle, with a side car, registered as a taxi, somewhere in West Wales.
I started driving very soon after the Suez Crisis (sp?) when learners still did not need to be accompanied. This concession lasted several months after rationing ceased. So I just took my L-plates off, and carried on driving, passed my test 10th March 1958. I passed it again in 1959, driving a Bedford RL in Blackpool, mixing it with the trams and holiday makers. (Ministry approved, civilian examiner)
602
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I shouldn't get too bothered by the car being issued an A plate. These are now considered age related but were originally issued over a period a just the new plates, there isn't a date where offices stopped 3+3 and used As, it kind of merged. A is very much a special case in this way.
-Duncan
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I had a BSA most of my life. When I was a feckless youth I sold the original reg to raise some funds, that was: JJJ 590. The new number issued was: ALA 118A. Some years later the DVLA allowed these A reg numbers to be changed to an age related number, and the bike was issued with: YSJ 193. Sadly now sold, but with the money raised I bought my series 2. :cheers
M33 by the looks? Very nice!
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The DVLA did indeed issue A suffix plates to any vehicle registered prior to 1963 when the original number was sold off in a cherished retention or sale. they did this right through the 80's and well into the 90's from memory.
I bought my 1959 S2 with just such an 'A' suffix plate on it back in 2006 and at that time I was able to write to the DVLA and get it transferred for a 'dateless' 3+3 registration. Interestingly, the new 3+3 plate was not issued under a 'non-transfer' basis so I was free to change it again.
Having found out the original number that was issued in 1959 as part of a V888 request (they gave you much more info then than they will now) I set about trying to track down who owned the original number. For me it was surprisingly easy, as the V888 request included the name of the woman who bought the number off the S2 back in 1991. It also included her address at the time.
Now banking on the idea that most people, may generally move house but many stay in the same area, I searched the phone directories for the area in which she lived at the time and started to systematically ring up the list of people in the area with her initial and surname.
I was pleasantly surprised that on my fifth or sixth attempt, I managed to find her and she still had the number on retention!
After a bit of explanation as to why I wanted the number she agreed to sell it to me at a reasonable sum.
So I now have the original number to put back on the S2 in about 15 years time when I've retired and have the time to restore it!
By then the DVLA will probably have banned the ability to do so, but if you are determined, it is not that difficult to find exactly who owns a number.
Any private detective would be able to do that for you in a very short time, for a fee of course. ;)
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A much belated update on this thread, with a tiny amount of information I have managed to prise out of the DVLA.
To recap the original post, I was confused that the registration number on my Landie is 'YVF 6nn A', a 1964 registration on a 1959 vehicle. It transpires (from the above) that this particular registration was not issued in 1964, however at some point for a while A registrations were given out as Age Related for pre 64 vehicles, and as such are non-transferable.
I duly composed a non-GDPR relevant request on a V888 form, requesting simply details on the registration number change history on my Landie. After waiting a number of weeks i got the letter back from the DVLA rejecting my request as I had not included the £5 fee >:D (hence my comment on another thread today). However the covering DVLA letter did say that 'As the vehicle was first registered in 1959 we will not store details between 1959 and it being first registered with the DVLA'. Regarding any restrictions on transferring the registration I should contact the general enquiries telephone number. So I did ...
The very helpful lady on the phone said the vehicle was first registered with the DVLA in 2004, and they have no record of any registration number change. She also went away and confirmed with her boss that as the record stands currently with the DVLA I would be able to request an age related 3 + 3 registration. For the record I am not interested in doing so, as I quite like the very old plates that are on the vehicle, I am simply trying to trace Landie's history and original registration.
DVLC came into existence in 1984 (?), and morphed into DVLA in 1995 (?). Prior to 1984, I believe the local councils registered vehicles.
'YVF ... A' is a Norfolk registration. Norfolk County council will, for a fee (£48), search their records for a given registration to see if they issued it. However their records only go to 1974. How were vehicles registered between 1974 and DVLC coming into existence (1984?).
I suppose I am trying to gauge how I am likely to be throwing the better part of fifty quid down the drain on a forlorn search. Is there a way to find out which licensing authority issued a registration? In my case DVLC/DVLA did not as they would have a record of having doing so?
The quest continues ....
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The information stored at Swansea is very patchy as can be seen from the post above, in my case they have an electronic copy of the original buff log bbok RF60 for my Land Rover, their records show me as the second owner but I know that I am at least the 4th.
A suffx registrations were used substantively for a short period in 1963 and when DVLA started issuing age related registrations they used the spare A suffix registrations before they moved to 3 + 3.
Some age related registrations can be transferred and some cannot but I have never managed to find the criteria. we have a few club members with pre 1963 land rovers that have A suffix age related registrations, some have been able to get them changed for 3 +3 and some have not. It seems a bit of a lottery as does the V888 research scheme.
Peter (with my VRO hat on)