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[w3526602]

Hi,

My garage is circa 2.7m wide, brick built, single skin with piers. Tiled roof on 45* A-trusses. I want a beam from which to hang engines (presumably from the middle of the beam).

Question. What are the relevent adventages of steel (say 150 x 50 x 3mm RHS) and timber (6" x 2"  or  9" x 2") A quick calculation suggests that (2 deep timber has more than twice the bending strength of 6" deep, but I would rather run two 6" timbers side by side, gap between, sitting over a pier.

I assume a Series engine  weighs about 250kg.

602

All advice welcome ... I can't promise to take it./

[Porkscratching]

Of the options you quote I'd rather go for the wooden "joists" but I'd probably double them up, side by side , and bolt em together.  As for the ends, I've never been a fan of brickwork, unless it's been done to a very high spec, so you may want to support the ends of your  "girder"  again if it were me I'd probably  bolt a couple of stout uprights secured thru the wall, to support the ends of your beam....

[rosinante]

Sandwich a steel plate between beams, commonly done in roof construction

[limestone69]

do you have "microlam" beams available?
basically, they are engineered plywood beams. Incredibly strong, easy to cut. If you can find them, you could probably get a single, which might be 8"h x 2"w that would be rated for that weight, over that span.

otherwise, lumber side by side, with no gap, works.
I also agree on adding posts at either end. A single 4x4 post can carry an enormous amount of weight.

I lifted the motor out of my Midget with a single 2x6 in my shed (although it was narrow, maybe 6')

[agg221]

A quick calculation suggest a single 6”x2” graded structural beam will carry it fairly comfortably. It would not pass building regs as a floor joist because of the presumed additional dead load and resultant deflection, but this does not actually apply here.

The bigger issues may be in the quality of the wall and floor - a spreader plate on the top or post bolted down the face would address this. Also the tendency to twist if your load is not perfectly vertical so some horizontal restraint would be needed. Straps across the top to the truss either side would probably do it.

Alec

[oilstain]

When I had this idea I used a acro prop at each side) floor to roof and bolted in place then 2 scafolding poles side to side and joined with short sections of scafolding ever 4' or so, all joined with scafolding clamps.
This proved to be very scrong even lifting the front of the Land Rover off the floor!
I how have smaller one like this-
auction: #202663590380
That just fits in my garage, I was lucky to get it for £25 delivered from my local car boot

my garage is very full
but this gives you a idea of the frame in place with the lifting gear I got a few weeks on at the same car boot but this time I had to pay more £35!

[rosinante]

Here's my lash up from years ago, had engine and box on it , as said props near the load reduces the cross section reqd
Chris,

[w3526602]

Hi,

Many thanks for replies and suggestions.  I once lifted an A35 engine using a short length of scaffold pipe sitting on two cushions, which in turn were laying on the front wings. Somehow (50 years ago now, memory has faded) I rotated the pipe, to wind the old seat belt around it ... after which my memory bank is empty. Could I have lifted an A-series engine single handed, without growing two more Adam's apples?

So ... two 150 x 50 beams across the bottom of the trusses, with noggins every couple of feet, A 150 x 50  strut, notched at top end, both edges, for the twin beams to sit on ... bottom of notches to be a smidgen higher that the top of the brick work (what is the Young's Modulus of Elasticity for timber?). I suppose I should test drill the concrete floor, to see if I need a "spreader at the bottom of that strut? If I'd built the garage, I would have back filled the trench on each side of the wall with concrete.   Rawl bolt (8mm?) the vertical struts to the wall.

I have hung a Ford V6 (Scimitar) engine on a single 9" x 2" timber, over a 14ft span. I think I used a 500kg  boat winch to lift the engine, and old seat belts (reef knotted) as slings. 

Hmmm! Maybe a 100 x 50 timber "spreader" plate on top of the brickwork would be sensible.  Maybe thicker (to lift the beams and give me a longer drop/headroom ). There may be an advantage to getting the beams in place, then lifting them a smidgen more.

Back to the drawing board.

Hmm! Angle iron rails sitting on top of the beams ... 4-wheeled bogey running on the rails, with chain hoist hanging below.

Hmmm! It would probably be sensible to poke 50mm thick blocks between the beams, use a 9" G-clamps to squeeze the beams together, stop them twisting. More pondering needed.

Fifty years ago, I knew all about stresses and bending.

602






 

[JonA]

i don't usually chip in on this sort of thing ... too many unknowns (& 'never' give out proffesional advice for free ...)

for a 250kg load (this includes all the lifting gear not just the 'load') a pair of 50x150 (regularised to 45x147) C24 grade (there are two common grades for structural softwood timber C16 & C24) would be adequate over the 2.7m span.
(sorry Alec, i disagree with your quick calc)
Beam needs to be held in position and restrained from rotating (tipping over) at the ends.
the capacity of the brick work wall (as said above) will depend on its quality, condition and how plumb it is. this we cannot tell from here.
assuming the brickwork is reasonably good & plumb, with a reasonable bearing (75mm min) the timber will start to crush before the brickwork suffers, but a wall plate piece would not be a bad thing.  if unsure provide a suitable alternative support, again as mentioned above.

all the best.

[Gibbo103]

As an alternative John, you are quite welcome to borrow my engine crane. I will happily drop it round any time and it means that you don’t have just one fixed lifting point. Dave

[w3526602]

Hi Dave,

Thankyou for the offer of your crane. I will accept ... as and when. You will be kept informed.

My garage walls are red brick, single skin with piers, supporting a trussed roof covered in concrete tiles. I would have been built at the same time as the rest of the estate, presumably with frequent visits from the Building Inspector. Probably 40 or 50 years ago. I doubt that the trusses were custom built ... more likely bought out of a catalogue.  But hey, what do I know. I can check the build dates, if it's relevant.

I was visualising a 150 x 50 timber, bolted vertically against each side wall, double notched at the top, level with the top of the wall-plate (?) on both sides, to leave a 50mm "tongue" projecting above the wall. The ends may need to be cut an an angle to go under the roof felt.

The beam will be two 225 x 50 timbers, across the garage, sitting in the vertical notches, and just a smidgen above the wall plate. (I'm assuming the the vertical timbers will compress slightly under load. (I'm trying to remember the Greek "alpha" ... "Mu?" It's been a long timer)

The ends of the beams will be notched "half a smidgen" to locate themselves between the wall plate. Beams not to be screwed to the up-rights, to permit a bit of flex under load, but 400mm long "noggins" between the two timbers, thru bolted. That should leave about 1800mm (don't check my math ... it's flexible) gap in the middle, for sideways adjustment of the hoist.

The Mk.2 version will have a wider gap between the beams, giving room to dangle a chain hoist between., hung from a crossbar sitting on top of the beams.

After which things get silly ...

Top of the beams protected by angle-iron to act as rails for the trolley that carries the winch sideways across the garage. ...

... and why not have two cross-beams a fair distance apart with a beam between (on East/West rollers), to carry the block & tackle (mounted on North/South rollers)?

I think it's time to get my coat, go and take some more tablets.

602

PS .. and yes, a pair of DIY ACROs would take a lot of the "stress "strain" out of the job ... running fit under the beams, clamp in place, let the flex in the beam, when under load, take up the slack.

PPS ... Remind me to check the clearance under my "up and over" garage door.   Hmmm! The side of next-door's house is only about 15ft from the side of my bungalow. I'm sure he wouldn't notice an RSJ hung between our houses. We already have a "working relationship". He's from India ... Wilkie is the first dog he has ever touched. He gave us booze for Xmas. We gave him Disney's Jungle Book video ... it seems his whole family (two tots) loved it ... or maybe he's just polite. Remind me to swot up on Hindu holy days.

[Peter Holden]

Our preferred method for removing and refitting land rover engines used to be remove the wings and radiator panel hang the engine from a piece of scaffolding tube with 2 strong men (teenagers) on each end.  We did the engine on a ford thames 15cwt pickup using a scaffold pole and bringing the engine out through the passenger door

I have only ever once used an engine crane and that was to punt an engine in a mk1 Cf Bedford, not an experience I would want to repeat, the engine crane was fine but the engine has to be lifted high enough to clear the grill pattern then tilted on its end and lowered into the hole turning it horisontal again asit gets under the firewall.  Later models had a removable grill panel.  Minis are a doddle in comparison.

Peter

[Roger]

Two garages ago, I built a new one with an inspection pit and brick piers strategically placed with steels on top for this very purpose.  I used one of the steels once to remove an engine, but in 17 years in that house I never used it again.  It was just too much hassle without the fore-and-aft movement required to, for example, align and engage a clutch if the gearbox is still in.
I spent £500 on a really good professional quality folding 2-ton engine crane (NOT a Clarke), and 20 years later it's still going strong (used it twice this week already).  I've taken it with me in trailers when collecting engines, and used it to shift a cast-iron kitchen range.  It has 120mm Nylon wheels so is easy to push when loaded on uneven surfaces.  It's an essential piece of kit I'd not skimp on and would really struggle to be without.

[agg221]

(sorry Alec, i disagree with your quick calc)

Hi Jon - you're right, I read the 3-point bend equation as gauge length rather than total span (ie halved it)

For reference, I treated it as a simple 3-point bend measurement of flexural strength.

σ = 3FL / 2wd^2

where
σ is flexural strength (Pa)
F is force (N)
L is the span length (m)
w is the width of the beam (m)
d is the depth of the beam (m)

Assuming F=2500, L=2.7, w=0.050 and d=0.15 gave σ=9,000,000 or 9.0MPa

C16 timber appears to be rated at 5.3MPa, C24 at 7.5MPa, so a single 6"x2" beam would be insufficient.

If the above is correct, it does look like a single 200mm deep x 50mm wide beam would be sufficient with a reasonable margin if C24 was used?

Alec

[w3526602]

Hi Everyone,

Many thanks for all advice. I think I've got enough to be getting on with. Can I assume that my timber merchant/builders merchant will know about (and sell) the "grades" mentioned?

My rule of thumb is that if you DOUBLE the depth, you CUBE the strength?  So 200mm deep is 8 times as strong as 100mm deep, and but 150mm deep is only just over 4 times as strong as 100mm deep?

Whatever, I would prefer to use double beams, with a "noggined" gap between, to 1) reduce the risk of it falling over, and 2) so that I can hang the "winch" a bit higher, and 3) Dangle the chain, cable, old seat belt between the timbers.

More anon, as development progresses.

Yikes, I miss the playroom under the house I built. 40ft x14ftm, with an 8" x 5" RSJ set into the walls, 8ft up, sink in the corner.( I never connected anything to the 100mm "foul waste"). I used to swing the front end of a complete S2 from the joist.  Barbara's "shopping unloading" room was only 18ft x 14ft.  It almost killed me, barrowing a couple hundred 6" blocks onto site, before my "blocky" arrived in time for coffee at 10AM.

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